Standard 10/20 preflop play?

[Mr. Curious]

It has been a while since I've played limit, so I thought I'd double check a few preflop decisions from today:

Live 10-20
9 handed

Hand 1:

My first two hands (BB & SB) resulted in chops. This is my third hand at the table.

Hero is on the button with 66

Preflop: Folded to CO who raises, Hero folds...

<In hindsight, this could have been a steal. Was Hero's fold correct or would the better play have been to 3-bet (or just call)?>

Hand 2:

MP2 is a thinking TAG.

Hero is the SB with AQo

Preflop: UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 (TAG) 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero folds...

<I'd have called if it was suited, but I'm used to NL and this hand is toast to a re-raise (and most raises)>

Hand 3:

Hero is UTG+1 with KQo

Preflop: UTG calls, Hero calls...

<Should this be a raise rather than a call?>

[SlyGuy]

I think all are good.

My two cents:

Hand one:

Calling is not an option. 3 bet or fold. Personally, I just fold. All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards. It's likely that overs will flop and if you don't hit your set it becomes an expensive guessing game.

OTOH, I can't argue too much with someone who advocates 3 betting here but it's just not for me.

Hand 2:

I fold that hand without thinking about it for a moment. A-Qo in bad position with a good player making it 3 bets and a cold calling button? Ugh! If anybody wants to buy that hand from me they can have it for a dollar.

Hand 3:

KQo looks nice but it's a trouble hand as well. I suppose that an argument could be made for raising but I hardly like to play it at all up front. That doesn't mean I don't but I want a loose game with passive, unobservant players. If the game is full of good players, who know what I'm doing, I won't play it in that spot at all.

[Mr. Curious]

[ QUOTE ]
My two cents:

Hand one:

Calling is not an option. 3 bet or fold. Personally, I just fold. All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards. It's likely that overs will flop and if you don't hit your set it becomes an expensive guessing game.

OTOH, I can't argue too much with someone who advocates 3 betting here but it's just not for me.


[/ QUOTE ]
Had I been at the table longer and gotten a better feel for it, this would have been an auto 3-bet against the CO.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2:

I fold that hand without thinking about it for a moment. A-Qo in bad position with a good player making it 3 bets and a cold calling button? Ugh! If anybody wants to buy that hand from me they can have it for a dollar.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was figuring, though the TAG's 3-bet could also have been an isolation bet against that opponent. But when the button cold called...

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3:

KQo looks nice but it's a trouble hand as well. I suppose that an argument could be made for raising but I hardly like to play it at all up front. That doesn't mean I don't but I want a loose game with passive, unobservant players. If the game is full of good players, who know what I'm doing, I won't play it in that spot at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

By this time, the TAG was gone and the table had loosened up a bit (forgot to add that to the hand). There was maybe one decent player left at the table. Does that change things?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By this time, the TAG was gone and the table had loosened up a bit (forgot to add that to the hand). There was maybe one decent player left at the table. Does that change things?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, IMO! I play it every time in a loose game (that's the only kind of game I'll play in anymore, actually, and if they tighten up I leave, there are so many other games to choose from and I play all forms of poker) against players who will call down with lesser hands/pieces of the flop. I'll try to randomize raises with that hand as well but when the other players aren't even watching it doesn't make much difference. They see their hand, it's half-way decent, and they won't let it go. KQo is a big hand in that kind of game. But, still, you have to face reality. It's a vulnerable hand, it can cost you money, because "even a blind squirrel.............."

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]

All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to say this nicely. This is not the most brilliant statement ever posted on this site.

Back to the questions. To get a better idea of what's appropriate at 10/20 the Mid-High forum would serve you better. Problem is if posted there the responses will probaly be: If you need to ask basic PF questions you should move down in limits.

For SS:
Hand#1 - is tough, at least for me, without knowing something about the table. If I can't 3-bet to fold out the blinds I would just let it go.

Hand #2- Well played

Hand #3- I raise with one limper in front of me trying to isolate him. Of course the table and the UTG limper may change things.

[Petteri]

Hand 3:

Hero is UTG+1 with KQo

Preflop: UTG calls, Hero calls...

<Should this be a raise rather than a call?>

[/ QUOTE ]

This borderline situation between folding, calling and raising.

If there is many very aggressive players acting after me I fold.
If table is somehow passive I call.
If UTG is somehow loose and rest of the table is tight I raise.

First of all, I do not chop. Not that I wouldn't, if the situation arose, but I do not play in games where chops can occur. Why would you? 9 handed and no one can find some trash worth playing? That my friend is not a game to play in.

I also challenge the three bet or fold from the first hand. I think three betting MAY make the hand HARDER to play at times. Often three betting will tie you to show down, but cold calling can allow you to float in and out of the hand.

[TemetNosce]

Hand 1: 3-bet or fold. Leaning toward 3-bet.

Hand 2: Easy fold.

Hand 3: Fine.

[ErrantNight]

hand 1 you can cold-call or reraise with

hand 2 is a good fold. caveat: if you and the TAG both read UTG to be a maniac/uttermoron/guythatraisesreally light, it might sometime be ok to play here if you suspect the TAG of isolating. but since you gave zero indication of such specific situation...

hand 3 easy raise

[ErrantNight]

what's up with all you weak tighties!?

[ErrantNight]

don't listen to howard. KQo is a great hand. he has yet to make an argument for it being a trouble hand. why is it a trouble hand? you're "in trouble" against AK and AQ and approximately nothing else. why would you ever assume that AK and/or AQ are out there, just because you have KQ?

against a raise, their possibility is enough to make KQo a pretty easy fold most of the time... but behind a limp? that's monsters-under-the-bed thinking to look down at KQo and think you're in trouble.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]

Back to the questions. To get a better idea of what's appropriate at 10/20 the Mid-High forum would serve you better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. SS is the correct place for 10/20 live IMHO

[ QUOTE ]
don't listen to howard. KQo is a great hand. he has yet to make an argument for it being a trouble hand. why is it a trouble hand? you're "in trouble" against AK and AQ and approximately nothing else. why would you ever assume that AK and/or AQ are out there, just because you have KQ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Check it out on twodimes.net for yourself. KQo is a dog to A3s by ~ 60/40 depending on the suits. To A5o it's something like 58.5/41.5. At 10-20, esp. w/o a raise, lots of players will play any ace, and love to play suited aces. The KQo is a dog to those hands. It's a dog to a pair of 8's. Just because there are other hands (A-Q, like you said) to which KQo is a real big dog doesn't mean that it does so well against many others, which it doesn't. That doesn't mean to be a sissy with them it just means they can be a trouble hand.

pokenum -h ah 5d - kc qs
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5d Ah 989977 57.82 715566 41.79 6761 0.39 0.580
Qs Kc 715566 41.79 989977 57.82 6761 0.39 0.420

[ErrantNight]

i'm not even going to justify this with a response. play more poker.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to say this nicely. This is not the most brilliant statement ever posted on this site.



[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I should have been more careful with the way I said that. And saying it nicely is very much appreciated.

When 5 hands are folded then a little under 20% of the deck has been removed. In 10-20 what cards can we assume have been folded? I assume that "bad" cards have been folded, those belonging to the lower 2/3 of the deck. Is this always the case? Of course not, but the likelihood of the remaining cards being more heavily weighted towards the top 1/3 of the deck are increased. You know that you're going to see overs to a small pair very, very often. 10 folded cards increases the chances of that happening. What then? I don't want to guess where I'm at in a hand and I certainly don't like bleeding off chips in stubborn pursuit. Additionally, I didn't offer that observation as a general rule to play by, just a factor to take into account. If I felt that the CO in that situation would raise with any two it's one thing. If I had respect for that player it's another. I usually don't like small pairs in that spot, but that's me, and it's certainly not the view of many others. I'd rather save my $20 or $30 for a better situation.

Also, the observation I made isn't my own thought, original to me, although I'm sure I'd have realized it sooner or later. If I had it at my fingertips I could point to who knows how many books that bring it up.

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to say this nicely. This is not the most brilliant statement ever posted on this site.



[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I should have been more careful with the way I said that. And saying it nicely is very much appreciated.

When 5 hands are folded then a little under 20% of the deck has been removed. In 10-20 what cards can we assume have been folded? I assume that "bad" cards have been folded, those belonging to the lower 2/3 of the deck. Is this always the case? Of course not, but the likelihood of the remaining cards being more heavily weighted towards the top 1/3 of the deck are increased. You know that you're going to see overs to a small pair very, very often. 10 folded cards increases the chances of that happening. What then? I don't want to guess where I'm at in a hand and I certainly don't like bleeding off chips in stubborn pursuit. Additionally, I didn't offer that observation as a general rule to play by, just a factor to take into account. If I felt that the CO in that situation would raise with any two it's one thing. If I had respect for that player it's another. I usually don't like small pairs in that spot, but that's me, and it's certainly not the view of many others. I'd rather save my $20 or $30 for a better situation.

Also, the observation I made isn't my own thought, original to me, although I'm sure I'd have realized it sooner or later. If I had it at my fingertips I could point to who knows how many books that bring it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

this post is worse than your last one. just stop.

[ErrantNight]

to be a little bit more specific:
[ QUOTE ]
When 5 hands are folded then a little under 20% of the deck has been removed. In 10-20 what cards can we assume have been folded? I assume that "bad" cards have been folded, those belonging to the lower 2/3 of the deck. Is this always the case? Of course not, but the likelihood of the remaining cards being more heavily weighted towards the top 1/3 of the deck are increased.

[/ QUOTE ]

is a useless thought process. it avails you naught. it's pointless. it is without worth or merit. don't trouble yourself with it.

[Aces McGee]

Hand 1: 3 bet.
Hand 2: Good fold.
Hand 3: Raise. KQo isn't a great multiway hand, but is too strong to fold here.

-McGee

Was that to me? If so, I wish you'd sit in my game and teach me.

[SeaEagle]

KQo is the 2nd most overrated opening hand, behind JTs, IMO. Two-thirds of the time you're not going to pair up on the flop, and if you raised PF then it's likely that any callers are ahead of you with either Ax or a PP.

It doesn't play well multiway since it's not suited and doesn't make any more straights than a normal 2-gapper. And often your PF raise will put you in the position where you're forced to chase a weak draw on the flop and possibly the turn.

Sure, sometimes you'll pair up and make a strong hand, but even your "strong hand" is less than TPTK so you can't always collect as many bets as possible. I'm not saying KQo is a weak holding, but I think Sklansky's classification as a Group 4 hand is accurate.

Open raising w/ KQo from UTG is a borderline play and most authors suggest calling or even folding from upfront with this hand. With a weak limper in front of you and a tightish table behind you, I can see an isolation raise. If UTG is a tag, this is an easy fold.

FWIW, I'm 3-betting hand one unless CO has a PFR% of about 2, but I could easily be convinced that folding is correct. Cold calling is bad, IMO, since you'll surely face overcards on the flop and you don't want 3 or 4 players in the hand to be able to hit those overcards, nor do you want CO to be leading the hand so he can easily bluff at the overcards.

Hand 2 is an easy fold.

[sean c]

First off I would find a better game.

Hand 1 fold or three bet.
Hand 2 easy muck
Hand 3 I would iso raise in such a tight game.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

All the prior folds indicate the deck should now be rich in big cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to say this nicely. This is not the most brilliant statement ever posted on this site.



[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I should have been more careful with the way I said that. And saying it nicely is very much appreciated.

When 5 hands are folded then a little under 20% of the deck has been removed. In 10-20 what cards can we assume have been folded? I assume that "bad" cards have been folded, those belonging to the lower 2/3 of the deck. Is this always the case? Of course not, but the likelihood of the remaining cards being more heavily weighted towards the top 1/3 of the deck are increased. You know that you're going to see overs to a small pair very, very often. 10 folded cards increases the chances of that happening. What then? I don't want to guess where I'm at in a hand and I certainly don't like bleeding off chips in stubborn pursuit. Additionally, I didn't offer that observation as a general rule to play by, just a factor to take into account. If I felt that the CO in that situation would raise with any two it's one thing. If I had respect for that player it's another. I usually don't like small pairs in that spot, but that's me, and it's certainly not the view of many others. I'd rather save my $20 or $30 for a better situation.

Also, the observation I made isn't my own thought, original to me, although I'm sure I'd have realized it sooner or later. If I had it at my fingertips I could point to who knows how many books that bring it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

this post is worse than your last one. just stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've asked around and have found that on this point, even though I'm told that McEvoy/Cloutier have said the same thing as me, your position is more accepted than mine. I therefor retract this part of my comments but stand by the others.

[hobbsmann]

Hand 1: I would tend to 3-bet here even against an unknown. Floating isn't a horrible option either, but without any knowledge of the how tight the blinds are a 3-bet would pretty much ensure this pot will be HU heading to the flop which is even more important for a small PP.

Hand 2: good fold

Hand 3: easy raise

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
even though I'm told that McEvoy/Cloutier have said the same thing as me

[/ QUOTE ]
IIRC McEvoy/Cloutier mention a "clustering effect" but don't say how much measurable effect it has, if any.

I think I saw in Barry Greenstein's new book where he says something like "Your odds of getting AA is 1 in 221, but if everyone folds to you in the BB your odds go down to 136 in 1", but where he came up with these numbers, I have no idea.

[W. Deranged]

1. I'm three-betting very often here, but I tend to do it more if I feel: a) villain will steal often; b) I have a good read on villain so I know I'll extract more from him when I'm ahead than he'll extract from me when I'm behind.

2. Good fold.

3. I raise this hand almost every time from that position. Many will advocate calling, though.

[istewart]

You will find nothing but crap in any book by McEvoy or Cloutier. That said, the "bunching effect" does have its place, but moreso in a lowball game, where people are playing all the low cards. Just because people folded to you in the CO in hold 'em doesn't mean the blinds are more likely to have monsters (because people are folding A5o and K3s, etc.).