Strange AK TPTK Line

[vmacosta]

I was sitting in a particularly good CA B&M mid-limit game when the following hand came up:

Fish (calls down to the river with or without bottom pair and rarely raises without the nuts) limped UTG+2, a pretty good but a bit laggy Kid raised from MP1 (he'd been trying to isolate the fish all night and was succeeding, making a bundle), folded to me in SB and I 3-bet with
A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Fish and Kid call.
Flop comes:
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif
I bet, Fish folds, Kid calls.
Turn is:
Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I check, Kid calls "time" and then finally bets, I call.
River is:
3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I bet, Kid calls.
How'd I do?

[rmarotti]

just bet the turn.

Looks like a big bet was missed somewhere...either turn or river. That's my first impression.

The only way your turn check is good is if the kid has a hand like kq or qj (of clubs maybe). If he did pair queens on the turn, then you played the hand perfectly up until not raising on the river.

Obviously, how you did is completely dependent upon what the kid had.

[vmacosta]

Let me give some more background: I was the only other player at the table who consistently wins and the Kid knows that. He was doing his best to stay out of my way all night (and I likewise since he was perhaps the only thinking player at the table). Also, he's not islating PF here with crap. Figure AK-AT and AA-55 with occasional random Axs and suited Broadway the only other candidates.

If you want me to guess within your criteria, I did that.
I don't understand why you clarified your image and gave his hand ranges....any thinking player would assume those things.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me give some more background: I was the only other player at the table who consistently wins and the Kid knows that. He was doing his best to stay out of my way all night (and I likewise since he was perhaps the only thinking player at the table). Also, he's not islating PF here with crap. Figure AK-AT and AA-55 with occasional random Axs and suited Broadway the only other candidates.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, he's raising a fish, which you say he's been doing all night (with crap or not).

Second of all, I don't know if the term "isolate" is correct and your image has absolutely NOTHING to do with the quality of his raise considering you were the SB.

Try to be consistent.

[vmacosta]

I don't quite understand, but please remove the word "occasional" as Axs and suited broadway are likely. Also, when I asked "how'd I do?", I meant "do you like this line?" Sorry for all the corrections.

[Adjutor]

[ QUOTE ]
I meant "do you like this line?"

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I don't see the value of check/calling the turn and betting out the river. If you're going to get him to bet here on any hand in your range that contains a Q or A why didn't you checkraise?

I say either bet the turn and make sure you don't allow him to check behind or checkraise if you think he'll go along until the river.

[vmacosta]

"If you're going to get him to bet here on any hand in your range that contains a Q or A why didn't you checkraise"
I didnt think he'd call down with most hands that I beat with the exception of maybe AJ and of course those few hands with a ton of outs. Also, I think his betting range is wider than just Q or A hands.

[Adjutor]

Is is calling range wider than Q or A hands?

[catlover]

I think you should have raised the turn.

If the queen scares you out of check raising, bet.

Check calling is far too weak here.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Is is calling range wider than Q or A hands?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so...except KcJc and the less likely JcTc and KcTc...but those hands probably would have raised the flop.

From what I can gather, your reason for checking the turn was because you didn't think he'd call with a hand you beat. The kid is probably raising lighter than normal to isolate the fish, that widens his hand range. You don't think he's calling down with AJ//A10/Ax(s)/JJ/KK/1010/etc? While this may be true (I suspect it's not in most cases), I don't like giving the kid the opportunity to take a free card. There's a flush draw on the board, the kid could have any PP down to 66/55, and he very well could have Axs or KJ. You don't want him to catch his two or three outer on the river to beat you because you let him have a free card. You also lose 2 bets on the river when he does catch since in most cases you're betting the river when he checks behind on the turn (assuming u don't fold to a river raise).
A better line IMO would be just to bet the hand the whole way through.

[MattiasL]

A turn bet should clearly be the default line, but an occasional check for variation is reasonable since you are now HU. Once the kid bets, you should raise.

Since the pot was fairly large already, the kid folding to the raise is not a problem. Not having to worry about his outs has value. And you are giving him 8:1 pot odds, so there are a lot of hands that will call.

The only argument against a turn c/r I can see is that it makes it easier for the opponent to play correctly on the river (fold if he misses), but assuming a non-club river many players will call down with anything reasonable if they think you could have been semi-bluffing.

[vmacosta]

OK. Nobody agrees with me (so this line must suck) but here was my thinking:
The kid's most likely holdings are top pair weak kicker (3 outs) or a PP (2 outs). Occasionally he has a monster (55, AA, QQ, AQ) and once in a blue moon he has a big draw KcJc,KcTc,JcTc. I figured if I check the turn he will bet ALL of those hands hoping for a free showdown with many of them but betting the river with the Ax hands. I also knew I had to pay off to a turn raise and was fairly certain that the only hands that were calling me were ones HE'D BET if checked to. I also figured if c/red, he would know precisely what I had and fold those hands w/out enough equity (nearly all of them). When he took so long to bet the turn, I concluded he must have something fairly weak such as 66-JJ, so I donked the river to make sure one bet got in there, planning on making a crying call to a raise. All in all, you guys are probably correct that I should just go ahead and c/r the turn. I think betting is ok but not as good since he does NOT want to call me down without top pair here.

[mike l.]

i would go for the c/r on that river.

[MitchL]

[ QUOTE ]
i would go for the c/r on that river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This opponent would love to check behind for free showdown on river.

[pokerhooker]

Was this game the 20-40 at Garden City?

[SA125]

I like the turn check because he respects you and would lay down some hands. Gives him a chance to go for value or bluff at it.

But I think the play was raising after he bet because he's not calling time with AQ-QQ. Hope he calls down or peels and folds UI.