KTs liking itself to much?

[oreogod]

PFR here is way LAGGY preflop only, but backs down postflop if played back at. Anybody like this flop or hate it?

Most ppl seem loose, passive-ish. early hand, so dunno

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets....

[toss]

The things I dislike about the flop raise is that UTG already called and the board has two diamonds. Plus I don't think the loose passies will fold often enough to make this work. Folding others in the pot is important because you want to clean up your pair outs.

[ebranig]

I don't like this call at all. But then again, I don't play 2/4...

[toss]

Table seems loose so its look perfectly fine.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Most ppl seem loose, passive-ish. early hand, so dunno

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on this, your KTs should've been folded preflop. You can't play this hand for a profit from EP unless you know the game is very loose/passive (and even then it's marginal).

I'd like the flop raise a lot more if the 9 were a club. As it is, you're raising a flop with a good amount of draw potential, in a small stakes game, with a large pot--you aren't going to fold out enough of your opponents often enough to make this raise worth doing.

When you catch the perfect turn card, your play after that is pretty straightforward.

[istewart]

Playing KTs at the right table in early position can't be that marginal, considering many posters are raising KJs there.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most ppl seem loose, passive-ish. early hand, so dunno

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on this, your KTs should've been folded preflop. You can't play this hand for a profit from EP unless you know the game is very loose/passive (and even then it's marginal).

I'd like the flop raise a lot more if the 9 were a club. As it is, you're raising a flop with a good amount of draw potential, in a small stakes game, with a large pot--you aren't going to fold out enough of your opponents often enough to make this raise worth doing.

When you catch the perfect turn card, your play after that is pretty straightforward.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never fold two suited broadways preflop in EP at 2/4. You have to think you have superior postflop play and this is a solid multiway hand for Flush and Straight draws.

The flop raise on this hand is marginal, but not a bad idea trying to clean up some outs, buy position and possibly a free card. With all that said I guess I really don't dislike the move. Granted not all of those things happpened but then again you got a great turn card so it did not matter /images/graemlins/smile.gif

nh

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing KTs at the right table in early position can't be that marginal, considering many posters are raising KJs there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i agree. Unless the table is unusually tight for 2/4, i'm limping this in EP. Flop raise is pretty bad though.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing KTs at the right table in early position can't be that marginal, considering many posters are raising KJs there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're giving up much by folding it there, even on a loose/passive table. As always, though, I'm speaking from gut instinct &amp; not any empirical evidence (because I'm too lazy to do the grunt work /images/graemlins/wink.gif).

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I never fold two suited broadways preflop in EP at 2/4. You have to think you have superior postflop play and this is a solid multiway hand for Flush and Straight draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't mind me asking, how are you doing with KTs on EP limps?

Not trying to be a smartass; I'm genuinely curious because I routinely fold this hand on 2/4.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never fold two suited broadways preflop in EP at 2/4. You have to think you have superior postflop play and this is a solid multiway hand for Flush and Straight draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't mind me asking, how are you doing with KTs on EP limps?

Not trying to be a smartass; I'm genuinely curious because I routinely fold this hand on 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to look it up right now actually as I am curious myself. PT is lagging ars right now though. Hopefully I'll have results shortly.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never fold two suited broadways preflop in EP at 2/4. You have to think you have superior postflop play and this is a solid multiway hand for Flush and Straight draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't mind me asking, how are you doing with KTs on EP limps?

Not trying to be a smartass; I'm genuinely curious because I routinely fold this hand on 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to look it up right now actually as I am curious myself. PT is lagging ars right now though. Hopefully I'll have results shortly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok here are my stats: hands winning %, bb/hand over 75k hands.

UTG
KJs - 33 ,33%, -1.04
KTs - 23, 33%, -.42
QJs - 19, 37%, -.25
Q10s - 25, 24%, -.55
J10s - 22, 27%, .68

+1
KJs - 22, 55%, .69
KTs - 16, 12.5%, -.28
QJs - 20, 30%, -.74
Q10s - 12, 18%, -.25
J10s - 12, 17%, -.13

So it looks like i might need to reevaluate my play. I play these hands based on the hand chart in SSH. this is also a pretty small sample size per hand per position, but still, something is afoul. I'll need to go into each hand and see what was going on, if I was just calling down too much or what.

I will report back and maybe make a new thread as this is very curious to me.

[istewart]

Keep in mind you have very few instances for each hand UTG and UTG+1 to determine anything conclusive yet /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[oreogod]

I play a lot of 6max and I know that has messed up my preflop game in full tables a bit...but doesnt SSHE have this as a limp on a loose table?

Just looked at Yaos book, he reccomends a fold w/ no limpers, but once UTG calls, I felt that my call would instigate a massive calling frenzy (table did seem passive). Got close to what I was looking for, and I dont really mind BBs laggy raise preflop (although I didnt expect him to raise his blind after this many limpers).


As far as the flop, I misread the diamonds on the board so it makes the raise marginal. But say there is no draw possible, still a bad raise on the flop?

[oreogod]

I think u guys should use this for EV, has far more hands (millions of hands). Looks like for the most part KTs is still +EVish in UTG+1.

Ed miller uses it (http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue)

[Harv72b]

Yeah, extremely small sample size &amp; all that (although still bigger than my database). I'd be very interested in seeing what you come up with.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
I think u guys should use this for EV, has far more hands (millions of hands). Looks like for the most part KTs is still +EVish in UTG+1.

Ed miller uses it (http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue)

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah good call. my sample size is way small and I also may just suck at times. I was reviewing the hands and often there was a pfr and I stayed in the hand too long which is what was costing money. I still think I can play the hands profitably, I just need to tweak my play a bit. Also the pokerroom stats are encouraging as well.

[KDawgCometh]

not much of a fan of the flop raise at all. I just don't see what we are logically folding here with our raise. THe pot is so big that any two overs has enough in the way of pure odds and implied odds to peel to your raise, and we are drawing to two clean outs for sure as any 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif isn't gonna be nice for out hand, and any 10 completes an oesd for someone, and they certainly would have the odds to call your raise. I think that this is just a straight up peel here and raise the turn if/when we hit

If the table is very very loose, I might limp efter UTG limps, but I think it is marginal at best.

With two diamonds and a pair on the flop combined with BB raising PF and betting the flop, I think the raise is bad.
Your outs to T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif are very dubious, and BB could easily have your K dominated. Combined with the possibly rather slim chance that someone had a 6, I think the raise is bad.

Since you do raise and manages to catch a T, I would obviously play the turn and river the same way. I guess you did win the hand against a busted draw?

[Petteri]

I do not like flop raise. Your hand is weak. In loose table raising does not protect you hand well enough. Call flop and see if turn brings pair or flush draw.

[oreogod]

so what if there is no flush draw? still hate the flop raise and peel the turn?

[Nick Royale]

FWIW (probably not much) I consider limping KTs after one limper standard at 3/6 where I play. Yet my vpip is less than 15%...

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
so what if there is no flush draw? still hate the flop raise and peel the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]


pretty much. THe pot is just so big that we are possibly only folding gutshots, but since the immeadite caller is getting 8-1 on a coldcall, I think even a gutshot could call that with implied odds if they hit on the turn, cause then they can expect some serious Big Bet overcalling on the next two streets, and a big ole pot to take down