Is my river thinking all kinds of bad?

[Tyler Durden]

This hand happened at a good home game where the limits were $7.50/$15.00. Pink chips! As one guy pointed out, you have to be really comfortable with who you are to play with pink chips.

I check in the BB w/ A /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. There were three limpers to me and the SB threw in another chip.

Flop came 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif. The SB checks. I bet with my third pair/top kicker and nut flush draw. I get raised by a guy in MP who I've played with many times before and he's a good player. Folded back to me so we're heads up. I call his raise.

The turn is an offsuit brick. He checks behind me. At this point I figure he's got a big club and that's good for me, plus I'm in the lead if he doesn't have a pair.

The river is the T /forums/images/icons/club.gif. I check, he bets, I raise, he calls, and I drag the pot. He showed K /forums/images/icons/club.gif J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif. I started thinking about this river play during my commute to work this morning. If he has a big club, I should have bet out and let him raise me so I could 3-bet. Am I right? Also, was I wrong in not betting the turn? Should I have been able to read his flop raise as just trying to get a free turn card?

Thoughts on all streets would be greatly appreciated. Particularly the river. But also the turn.

P.S. Exactly 35 days till I leave for Vegas!

[Buckshot]

"If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, oh what a Christmas party we'd have!"

Your line of questions seem to be results oriented.

Ask yourself, does the pair of 2's make a difference in betting or checking the turn? Did you think the 2's were the best hand? If you had the A/forums/images/icons/club.gif 7/forums/images/icons/heart.gif would you bet the flop? Would you have called to the river with this hand? The only saving grace with this hand, in your mind, is that you have a pair with the nut flush draw.

If it were me I would have bet the river.

~stephen

[marbles]

Call me loose, but I'd 3-bet that flop about half the time. The way the hand played out, though, I'd definitely bet that river. If he holds a big club, there's a good chance he'll raise, and if he doesn't, there's a good chance he would let it check through.

[rtucker5]

I think you played the flop well. I wouldn't want to 3 bet here heads up. I would consider a 3 bet if there was a cold caller or 2. You could bet the turn, but it makes the river play more difficult if he flat calls the turn and you don't improve. When he checks behind on the turn I would assume he is on the flush draw or was raising with overcards to get to the river for free. I would play the river the same way you did. If he doesn't have a club, he will not call a bet anyway so you lose nothing if it checks through. He might take a shot at the pot though, and you can check-raise. If he has a club, he will bet when checked to so you can check-raise.

[Tyler Durden]

...that I missed a bet? Because if I bet, he'll raise me with the King and I'd 3-bet. I'm fairly sure he would have raised me in this spot. What do you think?

[JimRivett]

My feeling would be that if a good player in middle position raised me on that flop, I would put him on either a set or a big draw. I would call the flop raise, and bet into him in the turn, if raised I woukd call, and if I missed on the river I can check fold.

For what it's worth I would definitely bet into him on the river in this case.

Jim

[Inthacup]

I think you missed a bet, but it was on the turn. Bet out the turn, and bet out the river, hoping he raises.

[Tyler Durden]

Well then I missed two bets, don't you agree?

The turn bet he would have called, plus the 3-bet on the river that he also would have called.

But I'm not sure I can bet this turn.

[Tommy Angelo]

Hi Tyler,

I think it's best to bet the river with the nuts, period. I know I'm on solid ground here because I learned it direct and in person from Barry T.

"I get raised by a guy in MP who I've played with many times before and he's a good player."

A good player is not going to hand you three big bets on the river with a four-flush on board and you looking at the ace. All the more reason to bet out on the river to make sure you collect one bet if he was planning to check behind with a pair or small flush. Checking into a good player on the river with your hand is a gamble. Betting into a good player on the river after it goes bet-raise-call on the flop and check-check on the turn is the routine right play for many many holdings.

Good luck in Vegas.

Tommy

[astroglide]

people will raise a hand like Qc8s here too. i would have checkraised the river as well, as the king is about the only club with which i could hope he'd raise me.

[Tyler Durden]

"A good player is not going to hand you three big bets on the river with a four-flush on board and you looking at the ace."

Can you elaborate on/explain this? I think if I had bet the river, he would have raised and called my 3-bet. Do you disagree?

[Inthacup]

well, if you bet the turn, and check the river, that screams "Oh sh*t, my top pair means nothing now". And he thinks "Cha-Ching".

I'd go for the turn bet and the river checkraise. I'm not too convinced that the K will raise more than 50% of the time he's bet into on the river. However, he'll bet out EVERY time he's checked to after being bet into on the turn.

[andyfox]

When he raises the flop, I'd have put him on either A) an eight (or possibly a set); B) a small flush; or C) a draw to a biggish flush. When he checks behind on the turn, I'd put my money on C. That being the case, when a club hits on the turn, I'd have gone for the check-raise too. I just don't see him having a small flush that he'd check behind. With you having the Ace, he'd most likely just call behind if you bet.

His flop raise might have been a free card raise, but you have no way of knowing until his action on the turn. Position, position, position. I'd have checked the turn too.

[Tyler Durden]

If I bet into him on the river after the turn was checked through, if he just called the river bet, would that be a good play on his part? Methinks not. He's got the second nuts; only one card in the deck can beat him. He may think I'm betting into a protected pot with no clubs and that I'll fold to a raise.

I think he's too good of a player to just call a river bet with the second nuts. That's why I think betting the river would have been a better play.

[Diplomat]

Tyler,

the theme behind checkraising the river is that you did not know he had the king of clubs . If you knew that, you probably would have bet. I think you are focusing here too much on the results, and not enough on the general themes that this hand raises.

If he is a fairly agressive player, he will probably bet any club , and maybe even a good pair, hoping for you to lay down. He'll probably call a checkraise with most reasonable hands, and almost definitely any hand with a decent club in it.

If you bet the river, he might call with a very small flush; he will likely lay down a pair or other decent non/flush holding; he probably will call with an ok flush (J high or something); and he probably will not raise you unless he has exactly the king of clubs, maybe the queen of clubs, if he thinks you are weak.

What it comes down to is more times you are going to collect at least one bet on the river by checkraising than if you bet. Tommy argues the opposite, and that is quite valid -- and he is certianly a much better player than I could ever hope to be. However, I think it is unlikely for your opponent to read you for a flush if you check through twice. The river check, to me, makes it look like you had top-pair, no flushdraw, and will lay down for a bet.

-Diplomat

[rtucker5]

I don't think you missed a bet on the river. If you bet and he raised I don't think he calls the 3 bet. I think 2 bets was the most you get out of him.

[andyfox]

I think there's a much beter chance of guy with the 2nd or 3rd (or 4th) nut flush calling my check-raise, than raising my bet. And there's certainly a much better chance of him calling my check-raise than calling a 3-bet if perchance he does raise.

[Lee Jones]

I know I'm on solid ground here because I learned it direct and in person from Barry T.

This phrase is going to be more and more prevelant around here.

And I agree with Tommy (and not just because BarryT says so). If only because I feel like an idiot when I don't collect any bets with the nuts on the river. But the surest way to get money in the pot is to put some in there yourself.

BTW - if you really trusted your read on his hand, wouldn't it have been right to bet the turn so you win the pot on the river if you both miss. I guess it depends on how much you trust that read, and whether you think he will bluff you out of the pot if it goes [turn brick] check-check [river-brick] check...

Regards, Lee

[magic_man]

If this guy is a good player who you've played with many times before, I think he may just call on the river if you bet out. He knows you put him on a big club with his free card play, so a bet is probably going to scare him here. When you check the river, he thinks he may get a call from a "pair plus a semi-big club" from the flop. I think the checkraise is the only way to get two bets here. Actually I bet even that scared him a bit. Maybe he should have folded the river. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

~Magic_Man

[magic_man]

>>>BTW - if you really trusted your read on his hand, wouldn't it have been right to bet the turn so you win the pot on the river if you both miss. I guess it depends on how much you trust that read, and whether you think he will bluff you out of the pot if it goes [turn brick] check-check [river-brick] check...>>>

He doesn't have the read here until MP checks the turn. Then he knows that MP is on a free card play. MP probably knows that you know that, so a checkraise is probably the best on the river. Extracting three bets once the fourth club comes is going to be nigh impossible.

~Magic_Man

[Baltimore Ron]

Tyler,

Before I get to the substance of your post, I'd like to correct a misconception. The chips in this game have a color closer to Silly Putty{insert copyright symbol here} and less of a pinkish quality. Therefore, you don't need to be THAT secure in who you are. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Now, to one of your questions. "Should I have been able to read his flop raise as just trying to get a free turn card?"

I'm of the opinion that your opponent's raise on the flop was the incorrect play in this case. And while you might not have been thinking of it consciously, the illogic of it probably crossed up your thinking, so that when the flush completed on the river, you had to be sure to get at least one bet in on the river.

Let's look at it from his perspective. With the second nut flush draw and some overcards that may or may not be good, why oh why, try to limit the field? In this situation you would want as many callers as possible for as long as possible to increase equity on the flush draw. After all, what do you fear? The Ace of course, but it's not going to fold for two bets. 35, 56 or 57 of clubs? They're not going anywhere either. The only people who are dropping are the ones drawing thinly (note the slick use of the adverbial form. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif )

A flop raise to a uni-suited board screams of a hand that wants protection. Over pair without a club or with a less-than-stellar one. A set. Two pairs. Top pair and top kicker not a club. Etc. Hoping that the A and K aren't out and that raggedy suit-singletons will fold. This is how I would expect a good player to play.

What would I do against him? He has position, so I think I need to sow a little confusion. I'd three-bet the flop just so he doesn't know from where I'm coming. If he doesn't raise back on the flop, I throw a bet out on the turn - whether or not the flush completes. If and when the flush completes, he doesn't *know* that I have it and I may be able to get in the bet-raise-reraise combo. Keep in mind that A's and 2's may be outs as well as clubs and you might already be ahead. There's no need to be timid.

As to your river play. The information given to you in the hand did not necessarily allow you to try the check-raise with confidence of success. When I saw the play, I fully expected the KJ to check behind.

But, that's just one Silly-Putty-chip player's opinion.

BR

[Barry]

Tyler,

It's 31 days until I leave for Vegas. I'll PM you in a few weeks and give you my cell phone # so we can try to hook up.

Hopefully, we can meet up with Clarkie and Dynasty too. I can't remember right now, but there was one other 2+2'er that was going to be around then too.

[mike l.]

"I think it's best to bet the river with the nuts, period. I know I'm on solid ground here because I learned it direct and in person from Barry T."

we already went over this and it just aint so and it doesnt matter if god himself said it. if you are reaching for expert level and tougher limits you need to be a threat to sometimes checkraise the river, with the nuts as well as on a pure bluff and w/ all sorts of things in between.

good thinking on this one tyler. it doesnt really matter what else i say, your game will just keep improving if you keep playing out scenarios like this is your head (and on here) and weighing the options. just be weary of the posts that end sentences w/ the word "period".

[Tommy Angelo]

"just be weary of the posts that end sentences w/ the word "period"."

I think you are on your period.

:-)

Tommy

[Tommy Angelo]

Me: A good player is not going to hand you three big bets on the river with a four-flush on board and you looking at the ace."

You: Can you elaborate on/explain this? I think if I had bet the river, he would have raised and called my 3-bet. Do you disagree?

Yes I disagree, but our disagreement is only on the definition of the phrase "good player." In your initial post, I took that phrase to mean a player who can figure out not to put in three bets on the river with the king against you. Doesn't matter how he figures it out. I just assumed that a "good player" would. From a recent post of yours, you define "good player" as somewho who will put in three bets. Semantic meltdown, that's all.

Tommy

[Rick Nebiolo]

Maybe with he has this specific holding but with any worse club all you will get is one river bet.

~ Rick

[andyfox]

Terrific post.

Baltimore Ron is one of my favorite posters, even though, as I think back to his rather infrequent posts, we usually disagree about everything. How can one not like a poster who talks about drawing thinly, and then talks about talking about drawing thinly?

B.R, while you may be correct that the flop raise by poster's opponent was incorrect, it is a play made all the time. And I still think that once opponent checked behind on the turn, it was evident he had a single high club and could be counted on to bet the river when the club hit, to usually not raise with the 2nd or 3rd nut flush, and if he did, to certainly not call poster's reraise. A flop raise in a unisuited hand may be screaming for protection, but it may also be screaming for two free cards.

But that's just one silly player's opinion.

[andyfox]

"Extracting three bets once the fourth club comes is going to be nigh impossible."

I agree. As is being bluffed out on the river after the action goes brick-check-check--brick-check-bet.

[Tyler Durden]

Thanks for the kind words mike l. As for never checkraising the river with the stone cold nuts, I think it all depends on your read. I was very confident with my read on this play. As many things are opponent dependent, so was this. I have played with my opponent many times and I've seen him make a similar play in the past. I was reasonably sure he'd bet the river if checked to.

Now that I've defended my river checkraise, I'd also like to say that it may not have been the best play, but not for fear of him checking the river through. If I bet and he raised, I could 3-bet. I disagree that he wouldn't have called my 3-bet. He may not have, BUT, I'm sure he doesn't want to have that target on his head (you know, the one where you let yourself get 3-bet on the river with the second nuts and you just lay it down). He's opening himself up for shots in the future. He'd leave his nose hanging open. But also, he's going to want to see my ace of clubs.


Thoughts, comments on that?

[mike l.]

"he's going to want to see my ace of clubs. Thoughts, comments on that?"

i think youve got it all just about right. it takes a pretty skilled player to drop a hand after raising the river. some players will do it, but most will just resign to calling the last bet and leave it at that.

[Coilean]

I would reraise the flop and lead the turn at least half the time here, but I think playing it this way is fine too. I like the check raise on the river based on your read, but I'm not sure why you think you can collect 3 bets by leading out. Here on planet Earth you usually get raised on the river with a nonpaired 4-flush board by a bluff or the nuts. Since you have the nuts, he probably isn't raising, or isn't calling the reraise if he does. Quit being so greedy and be happy you managed to get the 2 bets. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif