Embarassingly Butchered AQ Hand

I need some people to yell at me for this; discussion also would be okay.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1480)
Hero (t2670)
UTG (t700)
UTG+1 (t1410)
MP1 (t1460)
MP2 (t1490)
CO (t1340)
Button (t2950)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t40</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t20, MP1 calls t20.

Flop: (t130) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t60</font>, Hero calls t60, MP1 calls t60.

Turn: (t310) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t200</font>, Button folds, Hero calls t200.

River: (t710) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t1160 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t1160.

Final Pot: t3030

[HesseJam]

OK, so I would have gone all-in on the flop but I am not any good.

I might have folded to the 200 bet on the turn but probably I wouldn't have.

I sure would have called the all-in on the flop

[nyc999]

You need to define your hand at some point -- what did you put the villain on?

Nice river.

[se2schul]

I'd push the flop.
Did he have 2 hearts?
I'd also move up to the $11s since they aren't really any harder than the $5s.

[ QUOTE ]
You need to define your hand at some point -- what did you put the villain on?

Nice river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I put the original raiser on an ace, probably with a lower kicker (maybe two pair), but it's certainly possible that he had a PP and was taking a shot. To be honest, I just didn't consider the possibility of an overcall on the flop. When he did, I thought I'd priced him on for a flush draw.

On the turn, I thought I was beat but got suspicious given the action (I don't expect a bet here from a made flush often at my stakes), so I called to reevaluate on the river.

On the river, I thought there's no way that bet wanted a call, and I had aces up.

Looking back, I'm not sure anything after the flop was +EV.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd push the flop.
Did he have 2 hearts?
I'd also move up to the $11s since they aren't really any harder than the $5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a good idea to try and ignore his actual hand. His range is what I'm curious about, and I'm not sure what it is. I play the 5s and not the 11s mainly because I'm a pussy who likes this game and hates losing money to variance/dumb plays like these.

I think this is an excellent situation to check-raise the flop. You are out of position and at the button's mercy with a good but vulnerable flop. Without a read, his range of hands for a button min. raise are huge. I hate min. raises - they confuse me because I never make them.

Check-calling gives you NO info. You could have him badly beat, he could have AK, he could be continuation betting with a flush draw or even protecting a set with two hearts on board. Check-raising makes him the confused one and may just win you the pot right there.

That being said, if he calls, I slow down when the scary heart hits the turn.

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
I might have folded to the 200 bet on the turn but probably I wouldn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]
I find that statement incredibly funny.

I would have c/r'ed the flop. Maybe 2.5x his bet, to see where he's at. If he pushes, time to make a decision!

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's a good idea to try and ignore his actual hand. His range is what I'm curious about, and I'm not sure what it is. I play the 5s and not the 11s mainly because I'm a pussy who likes this game and hates losing money to variance/dumb plays like these.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, because it's a $5, the range for him making a small raise is pretty wide. Lots of players will play any ace, any face card, any suited, any connectors etc like this. They'll usually play hands like AA KK QQ or AK either very strong or very weak (sandbagging), so I'd eliminate those from his range 99% of the time. I'd say you're often ahead on this flop. Make a big bet, checkraise big, or push.

BTW, with the amount of posting/reading you do, you're well ahead of 90% of the players on party for the $5 and $10 games. If you can beat the $5s easily (which I assume you can), then it would almost certainly be more profitable to move up. BTW, I was very cautious with my BR. I played the $5s forever and eventually moved to the $11s. It took me forever to move to the $22s because I was affraid that there would be a huge jump in skill and I didn't want to get pummelled. I've finally made it to the $33s (long overdue) and I wish that I had made the move sooner. You can only take your game so far playing such low limits.

If you could play $7.25 tournaments would you? I ask because you don't have to play either the $5s or the $10s exclusively - you could do a mix, say play 1 $10 for every 3 $5s

(3*$6+$11)/4 = $7.25 avg buy-in per tourney

After you get 50 $10s under your belt, you'll probably be surprised at how easy they are.

[Tailgunner]

Well, since all his chips wound up in the pot I imagine he either had 53 or KJ. Your hand wasn't a monster and you're OOP, so I can't really fault you for not re-raising preflop.

I'd probably want to see where I stood with top pair/second kicker and pushed off the draws with a re-raise on the flop. Keep in mind that in low levels of tournies even though a bet may break the odds a lot of players will continue to draw since the pots are so small. You often really need to punish them to drive them off.

With both a possible straight and flush on the board and not even holding top kicker (especially if I had shown some strength earlier in the hand) I would fold to this all-in on the river.

[proell]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd push the flop.
Did he have 2 hearts?
I'd also move up to the $11s since they aren't really any harder than the $5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing 2600 chips into a pot of 150 is not a good play. I also like c/r on the flop, but make it ~250 instead of 2600.

[illegit]

I'd raise and/or bet at some point before the river to define my hand. If not preflop then on the flop, if not on the flop then on the turn.

Given that you got to the river like this, what are you guys doing on the river?

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd push the flop.
Did he have 2 hearts?
I'd also move up to the $11s since they aren't really any harder than the $5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you push the flop into this smallish pot? The same thing can be accomplished by making a "normal" raise on the flop. I'd probably raise the flop to somewhere around 300.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
Given that you got to the river like this, what are you guys doing on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely calling that river bet. Overbetting the pot like that doesn't look like a big hand to me. I wouldn't put him on a flush or a set. I think you are ahead here a lot of the time.

And the times you do lose, you aren't shortstacked by any means.

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd push the flop.
Did he have 2 hearts?
I'd also move up to the $11s since they aren't really any harder than the $5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you push the flop into this smallish pot? The same thing can be accomplished by making a "normal" raise on the flop. I'd probably raise the flop to somewhere around 300.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm planning on getting all your chips in on the river as a caller (like Noah did), I'd much rather be proactive and be the one pushing all my chips in. I'd also try to do it while my opponent is drawing rather than letting him complete his draw. If the stacks were deeper like in a $55, or if I were playing a deep stack MTT, I wouldn't just push my chips in, I'd actually try to keep the pot small and actually play post flop poker. I don't think a $5 STT with short stacks is the place to be playing post-flop poker - you just don't have that many chips. Push your chips in and fire up another STT if you lose. You could also fold on the flop, but I wouldn't.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think a $5 STT with short stacks is the place to be playing post-flop poker

[/ QUOTE ]

The stacks in this hand are not short. There is plenty of room for post flop play in this hand.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I might have folded to the 200 bet on the turn but probably I wouldn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]
I find that statement incredibly funny.

I would have c/r'ed the flop. Maybe 2.5x his bet, to see where he's at. If he pushes, time to make a decision!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd push the flop.
Did he have 2 hearts?
I'd also move up to the $11s since they aren't really any harder than the $5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you push the flop into this smallish pot? The same thing can be accomplished by making a "normal" raise on the flop. I'd probably raise the flop to somewhere around 300.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm planning on getting all your chips in on the river as a caller (like Noah did), I'd much rather be proactive and be the one pushing all my chips in. I'd also try to do it while my opponent is drawing rather than letting him complete his draw. If the stacks were deeper like in a $55, or if I were playing a deep stack MTT, I wouldn't just push my chips in, I'd actually try to keep the pot small and actually play post flop poker. I don't think a $5 STT with short stacks is the place to be playing post-flop poker - you just don't have that many chips. Push your chips in and fire up another STT if you lose. You could also fold on the flop, but I wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is on Stars. The stacks are actually 50% larger than they are in the $55s.

I actually think I should fold the turn. I'm in a really bad spot there: not sure if I'm drawing dead, drawing live, or being drawn on. I was 100% ready to fold after the pfr's call; when he folded, I was stumped. Looking back, OOP, I have to fold this. In position, I'm raising that. But OOP, I've gotta fold I think.

Not to beat a dead horse, but check-raising the flop would have put you in a much better position to make an educated decision on the turn - if it got that far.

Given you check-called the flop, I think your only options on the turn are raise or fold. I would fold.

[Gar Pike]

Once the button raised PF, I would have re-raised to about 120. If that didn't take it down, fire out about 120 or 150 on the flop.

If you get called or raised, well you're OOP, you have TPGK on a scary board. Throw a couple black chips out there and fold to a raise?

You might still be ahead, but there's a reasonable chance you're behind a set, str8 or flush. If you want to pay to find out, go ahead, it won't kill you. People will be less willing to bluff into you, that's for sure.

Thing is, if you show strength from EP a couple of times, a) You might not be faced with an all-in on the river
b) You can fold with a cleaner conscience if you are
c) You'll still have a lot of chips left if you do.

If he's being tricky, you'll have plenty of time to find out, and to figure out a way to use that against him.

Regards

Gar

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]

This is on Stars. The stacks are actually 50% larger than they are in the $55s.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad. Ya, raise the flop.

[AliasMrJones]

What's all this check/call crap. We're kickin you outta the club. j/k. I'd either bet out or check-raise that flop. Whether you won or not, you're spewing chips at least on the turn most of time, I think.