keeping em in on a scary board

[sthief09]

terrible LAG (60/25/1.5) opens from the button, I call in the SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gifA/images/graemlins/club.gif or K/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 70/15/1/45 wtsd calls in the BB

flop K/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players, 3 BB)

I bet, BB calls getting 7-1, button raises, I call, BB calls getting 11-1

turn 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 6 BB)

I bet, BB folds, button raises, I 3-bet


I think it's ok to do this with KJ. is it ok to do it with AA?

[spamuell]

I think it's definitely ok with KJ, I'm not sure about AA, but why wouldn't you 3-bet pf in either case? I can see the argument for just calling with each hand respectively but not both.

[Nick Royale]

I don't get the preflop call. BB will call a 3-bet often and against 2 seemingly terrible players I don't see the point of being deceptive.

I don't get the flop call. You're letting BB call profitable with gut-shots and pairs.

EDIT: my comments are regarding AA...

[jba]

I do not understand the preflop call, can you explain that?

after that, I think it's a fine line with both. your stop and go with a twotone board looks like a split pair of kings or jacks, so even a tag will raise this turn with as little as KQ.

[Entity]

Hey Josh,

Your hand is so misrepresented you have to 3-bet and call a cap IMO.

Preflop I really don't get as well. This is the ideal sort of player to 3-bet against because you'll often earn yourself a lot more action.

Rob

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
You're letting BB call profitable with gut-shots and pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe on the last call he can, but overall he got 5:1 odds to see the turn so it's not like he's making money calling with those hands here.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe on the last call he can, but overall he got 5:1 odds to see the turn so it's not like he's making money calling with those hands here.

[/ QUOTE ]
This reasoning is flawed, right? He's not making money, but if we can put him in one more unprofitable situation we should, no?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop I really don't get as well. This is the ideal sort of player to 3-bet against because you'll often earn yourself a lot more action.


[/ QUOTE ]


because there's a moron in the BB

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe on the last call he can, but overall he got 5:1 odds to see the turn so it's not like he's making money calling with those hands here.

[/ QUOTE ]
This reasoning is flawed, right? He's not making money, but if we can put him in one more unprofitable situation we should, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely, the tradeoff is to wait for the turn and possibly get 2bbs out of him.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's definitely ok with KJ, I'm not sure about AA, but why wouldn't you 3-bet pf in either case? I can see the argument for just calling with each hand respectively but not both.

[/ QUOTE ]


I kind of combined 2 hands. I don't remember what happened preflop with KJ but I flopped top 2 against a LAG and the asme idiot in the BB. I might've called KJo from the BB against a LAG UTG or UTG+1 raise. both hands happened this morning and I think both had a KJ. I didn't remember what happened so I turned it into one hand, but the concept was the same. keep em in even if they could have outs because they probably don't. with AA I don't think the BB is folding anything with outs anyway, so I'd ratehr keep him in in the event that he has absolutely nothing

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe on the last call he can, but overall he got 5:1 odds to see the turn so it's not like he's making money calling with those hands here.

[/ QUOTE ]
This reasoning is flawed, right? He's not making money, but if we can put him in one more unprofitable situation we should, no?

[/ QUOTE ]


the idea is to make the idiot pay 1 bet at a time until he feels like he has to stay in the pot. I bet the flop, he thinks "ok I'll call" and it gets raised and he calls one more. then I bet the turn and I want him to think that it's only one bet and he's paid so much already so he should try to hit something. then ideally I can face him with 2 more and make him fold.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Preflop I really don't get as well. This is the ideal sort of player to 3-bet against because you'll often earn yourself a lot more action.


[/ QUOTE ]


because there's a moron in the BB

[/ QUOTE ]

The moron is never folding here. You're hoping it will go call-3bet-call-cap? I just think you earn the most on average by 3-betting (your range here is huge) and bet-bet-bet.

Rob

[Evan]

I really hate calling an open from the button with KJ in the SB.

I hate calling with the aces less, but I wouldn't for two reasons:
- I never just call in that spot with any hand so I disguise my hand better by 3 betting.
- BB here is functionally retarded and will call a 3 bet with way too many hands.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop, he thinks "ok I'll call" and it gets raised and he calls one more.

[/ QUOTE ]
Holding AA, most every of he's possible holdings will have odds to call the turn raise. He will rarely have odds to call a 3-bet. I can see the point of the smooth call with KJ, but not AA.

[adamstewart]

I just can't ever see myself calling with AA preflop from any position.

The way I play, I'm pretty aggressive - including from the blinds, and I'm sure the other players notice. Thus, when I get dealt AA, I must raise it up, as they'll often play back at me (not just preflop, but throughout the hand).

I build up an aggro image for times like these so I'm certainly not going to go all passive with AA in the blinds.

Adam

[sthief09]

I wrote this in another post, but I didn't call with the KJ hand. I just threw it in there. I think there wasanother situation where I either 3-bet and got capped or called with KJs to keep the BB in or something. I think it might've been capped. that's not the point of the post at all. the point is postflop. whether or not you like it doesn't matter because I'm playing the hand. raise or call doesn't matter much. postflop si more important


BB is retarded but I'd rather call with 100% of his hands for 1 more bet then 50% of his hands 2 for 2 more bets. he's going to give way too much money postflop getting the worst of it and I want him there drawing to dead overcards.

I will call with some hands from the SB. there are certain ahnds where I don't mind it being 3-way. if there's a semi passive button openraiser I can call there with A9s or QJs, and if there's an aggressive one with a retarded BB I can play a hand like 76s. I used to hold that same philosophy of raising or folding second in from the SB, but against the [censored] they raise you can often just call

[sam h]

I like the first bet but would three-bet the flop with AA. Otherwise, I think BB is going to be correct to call with most of his hands. He will have either a gutter or a five outer pretty frequently, and those hands are probably making a mistake calling two but are definitely correct to call one.

There is a big difference between AA and KJ here because with the latter you will frequently have him drawing basically dead with Kx, Jx, or 6x.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop, he thinks "ok I'll call" and it gets raised and he calls one more.

[/ QUOTE ]
Holding AA, most every of he's possible holdings will have odds to call the turn raise. He will rarely have odds to call a 3-bet. I can see the point of the smooth call with KJ, but not AA.

[/ QUOTE ]


well he folded the turn for one bet which means he was drawing to runner runner on the flop. he did not fold a pair or gut shot. in general I think I have to 3-bet there.

[Trix]

Think I like the play postflop with AA, but would rather play faster on the flop with top two as BB is more likely to commit himself at that point and it probably doesn´t slow down the lag too much.
With AA, you can´t really protect your hand anyway if he has something reasonable, so it makes more sense to play it for max value I think.

I´d never coldcall AA PF in this spot though as this kind of player in the BB is very likely to call two cold and the lag probably will give pretty good action in position anyway.
I dont mind coldcalling KJ here as it doesn´t play that well 3-way out of position against these guys. You have more options if you flatcall and can probably make up the equity you gave up preflop through that.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
With AA, you can´t really protect your hand anyway if he has something reasonable, so it makes more sense to play it for max value I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? Giving him 12:2 would protect against most hands.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With AA, you can´t really protect your hand anyway if he has something reasonable, so it makes more sense to play it for max value I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? Giving him 12:2 would protect against most hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not talking about what's right or wrong. I'm saying he's not gonig to fold a hand he lieks so I'm just going to try to get him to pay the most. he doesn't think about pot odds

[stinkypete]

i like the idea of seeing the flop cheaply against retards with KJ. if you 3-bet you're committed to putting in some more bets and you're likely up against only one other player. missing the flop sucks if he's the type to chase to the river anyway. if you call and you hit your flop, you get 2 retards paying you off.

with AA against retards, you just want to get a lot of money out of them, so i can see an argument for calling with that too.

i've never really thought about playing these hands like this before, but i think i'm gonna try it out in the right situations.

[sthief09]

I think my PFR with AA is like 80. tehre are very situations and hands that are correct to call against AA. most hands suffer from bad reverse implied odds. pocket pairs and suited connectors are the onlyhands that are correct because they have good implied odds against em

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe on the last call he can, but overall he got 5:1 odds to see the turn so it's not like he's making money calling with those hands here.

[/ QUOTE ]
This reasoning is flawed, right? He's not making money, but if we can put him in one more unprofitable situation we should, no?

[/ QUOTE ]


the idea is to make the idiot pay 1 bet at a time until he feels like he has to stay in the pot. I bet the flop, he thinks "ok I'll call" and it gets raised and he calls one more. then I bet the turn and I want him to think that it's only one bet and he's paid so much already so he should try to hit something. then ideally I can face him with 2 more and make him fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

the idea shouldnt be to keep him in profitably, as you may be doing by playing so passively, but if you had played this aggressive he would have come along anyways but given you more bets along the way. and i like bets /images/graemlins/smile.gif

rj

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe on the last call he can, but overall he got 5:1 odds to see the turn so it's not like he's making money calling with those hands here.

[/ QUOTE ]
This reasoning is flawed, right? He's not making money, but if we can put him in one more unprofitable situation we should, no?

[/ QUOTE ]


the idea is to make the idiot pay 1 bet at a time until he feels like he has to stay in the pot. I bet the flop, he thinks "ok I'll call" and it gets raised and he calls one more. then I bet the turn and I want him to think that it's only one bet and he's paid so much already so he should try to hit something. then ideally I can face him with 2 more and make him fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

the idea shouldnt be to keep him in profitably, as you may be doing by playing so passively, but if you had played this aggressive he would have come along anyways but given you more bets along the way. and i like bets /images/graemlins/smile.gif

rj

[/ QUOTE ]


in this particular situation he folded the turn which means he was drawing to runner runner

[Alobar]

havent really read any of the replies. I 3 bet both preflop. I really dont like cold calling with KJo, if I were going to cold call I'd rather do it with AA. But against this guy it seems like you should 3 bet just because you are giving up so much not to.

[Danenania]

I think you miss out on too much value by calling PF with either one of these (though it makes a bit more sense with KJ). I have seen many 70-80 vpip types who would call with 100% of hands here in the BB in a steal situation like this one, even for two bets. And if he does fold he's still giving up 1 SB to the pot. Another concern when you have AA is you won't be giving button a chance to cap if you just call, forfeiting even more value.

Postflop action, as mentioned, won't be an issue regardless of what you do PF.

[tongni]

It sure is going to suck when the BB hits a gutshot and you get owned for two more bets. Better to 3bet because nobody gives anybody any credit anyways.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
It sure is going to suck when the BB hits a gutshot and you get owned for two more bets. Better to 3bet because nobody gives anybody any credit anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

but it'll rule when you call here, check-raise the flop, and the bb chases with his gutshot and misses.