Perfect free showdown raise...

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Villian is taggy.

Krishan

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is taggy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I was BB in this hand. I had 87o and called the turn with the intention of folding the river.

[sthief09]

seems like an arbitrary use of it to me. it's not very effective against draws. and with only 5 bets in the pot, making him fold isn't a big goal

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villian is taggy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I was BB in this hand. I had 87o and called the turn with the intention of folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MrBig30]

I like it if he is aggressive with his draws but not tricky enough to do a bluff-donkbet at the river.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

I like it if he is aggressive with his draws but not tricky enough to do a bluff-donkbet at the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


you don't gain anything against a draw. if anything you probably lose

[Jeff W]

Do you think I should have planned to check-call river unimproved if no scare card hits?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villian is taggy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I was BB in this hand. I had 87o and called the turn with the intention of folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually thought after the hand that you would have folded the river. But firing the last bullet is not profitable in that spot long term.

Krishan

[MrBig30]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I like it if he is aggressive with his draws but not tricky enough to do a bluff-donkbet at the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


you don't gain anything against a draw. if anything you probably lose

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. You are probably right. I am going to think about this some more...

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I like it if he is aggressive with his draws but not tricky enough to do a bluff-donkbet at the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


you don't gain anything against a draw. if anything you probably lose

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Jeff what would you do if you held 9t or a flushdraw on the river if I just called your turn bet? What % of time would you bet?

Krishan

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually thought after the hand that you would have folded the river. But firing the last bullet is not profitable in that spot long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple things:

1. My kicker did play a role here. 87o is the weakest 8xo hand I'm playing here. If I had K8, Q8 I definitely call a blank river.

2. My plan was to fold this time on the river, but you can't rely on me to play consistently and I'm very often showing down here.

No way a river bluff is profitable.

[TStoneMBD]

i dont like the free showdown raise here. you cant get an 8 to fold so why give a weaker hand a chance to save a bet?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think I should have planned to check-call river unimproved if no scare card hits?

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah I'd probably be seeing a showdown with that hand since all you had on him probably was numbers

I have been waiting for the turn to check-raise in those spots. maybe I'm using it too liberally though.

[sthief09]

just about all the time

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like the free showdown raise here. you cant get an 8 to fold so why give a weaker hand a chance to save a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I could get an 8 to fold sometimes. I also think I can get a pp to fold sometimes. This play wouldn't be very good if I didn't think I could fold a better hand.

Jeff said he was planning on folding the river. It's not that big a step to fold to the turn raise. Also if it hadn't been posted on the board, it might have had metagame benefits. (but probably not)

Krishan

[sthief09]

8 is basically top pair. no one folds anything ever, let alone "top pair"

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
8 is basically top pair. no one folds anything ever, let alone "top pair"

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not noone. The play has several things going for it.

1 It's read based.
2 I'm never getting 3-bet by a worse hand. Ever.
3 The top card paired the turn and it's concievable that I could have the top card.
4 There are DEFINITELY hands better than mine that he will fold more often than I'll get 3-bet by a worse hand. (66, 77)
5 He could be on a draw and check fold the river.

Krishan

[helpmeout]

Your turn play is fine although I'd likely find a fold on the flop here since its unlikely he has a pair of 4s.

I dont know what the argument about draws is I mean I'd 100% want a draw to fold this turn he could have 14 outs here. Your pair of 5s will get beat when he misses and catches a pair.

[TStoneMBD]

if youre going to argue that fundamentals dont play a role in this hand because you have a read, then why post it? if you have a read that he will fold an 8 here sometimes somehow then its a good play depending on that frequency.

[ QUOTE ]
2 I'm never getting 3-bet by a worse hand. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats impressive that you have jeffw's game down to such a perfect science.

[ QUOTE ]
5 He could be on a draw and check fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes he could also have 9T and bet the river when a heart comes, among other things.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
if youre going to argue that fundamentals dont play a role in this hand because you have a read, then why post it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand.

[ QUOTE ]
if you have a read that he will fold an 8 here sometimes somehow then its a good play depending on that frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most good players will lay down some hands to this raise. Jeff is a very very good 2+2er. There are worse against whom this play is stronger.

[ QUOTE ]

2 I'm never getting 3-bet by a worse hand. Ever.



thats impressive that you have jeffw's game down to such a perfect science.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you understand. I'm not playing this hand against Jeff. I'm playing this hand against a generic TAG.

[ QUOTE ]


yes he could also have 9T and bet the river when a heart comes, among other things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but I have more equity than he does.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
2 I'm never getting 3-bet by a worse hand. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats impressive that you have jeffw's game down to such a perfect science.

[ QUOTE ]
5 He could be on a draw and check fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, what worse hand would 3-bet? 9hth maybe but if someone posted 9hth 3-betting this turn everyone would say he is spewing. I'm very protected by the turn pairing a card I could have.

Krishan

[TStoneMBD]

im not arguing that a worse hand will likely 3bet you here, but i am arguing that your use of the words "never" followed up with "ever." should be an insult to jeffw. you said this hand was not against jeffw, but against a generic tag. while you were playing the hand out it was a generic tag, but if jeffw did in fact play this hand then by saying that you will never be 3bet by a worse hand, ever, you are saying that jeffw is not capable of this.

as for my comment about why bothering to post the hand, i think that if you have a read that the tag will fold an 8 here with some frequency, then the play is likely the right one (of course there are other factors). fundamentally, i think that the play is flawed. i dont know how you want us to critique your hand if your line is based on a read. we cannot gauge the level of accuracy in your read. if you want us to tell you how frequent villain has to fold an eight here for this line to be profitable then that is more precise, yet difficult to answer, at least for me. i would really like to hear the thoughts from posters on what this % needs to be, because this information is extremely valuable, but unfortunately twoplustwo generally doesnt think about these frequencies nearly enough. however, if you read that villain will fold an 8 here just because he is a "generic tag" and not because you have been watching him play, then i disagree with you.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
should be an insult to jeffw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lolomgbbq. Jeff, I apologise if I offended your poker skills.

[ QUOTE ]
if you read that villain will fold an 8 here just because he is a "generic tag" and not because you have been watching him play, then i disagree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think this is a good play against a generic TAG.

It's not just folding an 8. I will reiterate.

1. It's a safe play. I'm not getting 3-bet by worse hands so can safely fold to a 3-bet.
2. I might get better hands to fold. 66,77, and 8s.
3. I might charge a draw a bunch when a draw might have check folded the river.
4. I might get a weak draw to fold incorrectly (QT, 79)
5. My hand range up to the turn is pretty wide and I could have lots of hands that beat a pair of 8s exactly the way I played this hand.

Don't get hung up about folding an 8. There is more to this.

Krishan

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
2 I'm never getting 3-bet by a worse hand. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]
With a read of "taggy 10/20 player" I'm gonna go ahead and say that this is way wrong.

[ALL1N]

I think you played this hand fine.

[TStoneMBD]

laugh out loud oh my god barbeque?

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, what worse hand would 3-bet? 9hth maybe but if someone posted 9hth 3-betting this turn everyone would say he is spewing. I

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe but that doesn't mean they would be right and even if it were spewing that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Turn semibluff three-bets happen at 10/20, from players who I have read as "taggy" and from players who I have read as TAG or LAG.

In addition, if you make these free showdown plays a lot and often fold to the three-bet, players at 10/20 catch on from what I've seen. The value of getting you to fold the best hand in this pot here is great, and if they have that read and are really thinking I don't see why they wouldn't three-bet you here with a draw.

Anyway to try to actually touch on the decision, I think a call is better. I will have to do the math to try to back this up.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
laugh out loud oh my god barbeque?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was in a thread yesterday. I had to get it out of my system.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
Seriously, what worse hand would 3-bet? 9hth maybe but if someone posted 9hth 3-betting this turn everyone would say he is spewing. I


Maybe but that doesn't mean they would be right and even if it were spewing that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.


[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't happen often enough that the benefits of a turn raise don't outweight a call. And I think it happens very close to 0% of the time.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

Jeff,

We are in a unique position to see thoughts and actions from Villian and Hero's perspective. Can you answer a couple questions?

Would you ever 3-bet here with a worse hand than 55?

What is your hand range? I'm guessing any pair, gutshot, openender, flushdraw and a small number of complete bluffs. Is this about right?

Are you cring 66, 77 on the flop?

If you do, do you lay them down to my turn raise?

Thanks,

Krishan

[MAxx]

-looks fine to me

[einbert]

The read you gave was "taggy" not Jeff W so I don't see how this really ascertains.

Let's find everyone on 10/20 6max that seems taggy after x hundred hands and ask them these questions.

Anyway I'm not trying to pick a fight or prove a point, just stating my opinion. I really do think these turn three-bet semibluffs happen at 10/20, but obviously you don't think they're as common as I do. So I don't see any reason we can't just agree to disagree on the play.

[MrBig30]

[ QUOTE ]
laugh out loud oh my god barbeque?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I thought... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Your turn play is fine although I'd likely find a fold on the flop here since its unlikely he has a pair of 4s.

I dont know what the argument about draws is I mean I'd 100% want a draw to fold this turn he could have 14 outs here. Your pair of 5s will get beat when he misses and catches a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]


ok first off I forgot the 8. getting a hand like KQ (or similar overs) is better than usual beacuse he has 9 outs, not 6

the thing about it not helping with a draw is that he's probably going to bluff the river anyway, so you get those 2 bets. but when you raise the turn and he hits a draw and bets the river, it could possibly be hard to get away from. or he could have AJ or a boat and not want to 3-bet the turn in case krishan has something marginal that will pay off a river bet but not a turn 3-bet

[sthief09]

I just don't see merit in the play. maybe it's a nice change of pace, especially if you think he'll fold an 8 (which I 100% don't, but in this game the only thing that we have 0% information on is what our opponents folded. this makes knowing when to bluff so hard. if we could see what they're folding then we'd know what they can and cannot fold. all I know is that when I have a hand here I get called down by weak A highs plenty). but other than that I see no real reason to do it. free showdowns used to be my default a while back, whereas now calling down is my default. I think calling makes things easier to play, and often the easier way leads to you making the best decisions. if he 3-bets you have to fold the best hand some of the time. whenever there are draws on board there's a risk that someone will semi-bluff. here's a hand I played today against a generic, not too aggressive TAG. if I was raising for a free showdown I would've folded the best hand.

now I'll admit I overlooked that overcards have 9 outs but thinks he has less so you can induce a bad fold by raising. this gives the play merit, but if the board hadn't paired or if you had a pair higher than the board cards, tthen I don't see a compelling reason to do it

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Js 7s (one pair, fours).
Hero has 6h Th (two pair, tens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 11 BB. </font>

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
free showdowns used to be my default a while back, whereas now calling down is my default.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling is my default also. I almost never raise for a free showdown. This might be my first in the last 5K hands. It's much more applicable at lower limits where you don't get 3-bet on the turn as much. I wanted to go over the theory of turn raises though. In the hand I posted, there are a lot of little things that make raising the turn very good. The most important thing is the top turn card pairing given my hand range.

[ QUOTE ]
if I was raising for a free showdown I would've folded the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never raise for a free showdown in the hand you posted. FWIW, I would have raised the flop, called down if raised and the way you played it, I would raise the river.

Krishan

[helpmeout]

if villain bets the river hero folds

if hero calls turn he has to call the river the difference is he doesnt charge the draw an extra BB

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
Seriously, what worse hand would 3-bet? 9hth maybe but if someone posted 9hth 3-betting this turn everyone would say he is spewing. I


Maybe but that doesn't mean they would be right and even if it were spewing that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.


[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't happen often enough that the benefits of a turn raise don't outweight a call. And I think it happens very close to 0% of the time.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]


due to the size of the pot and the fact that the decision is very close, close to 0%, which I think is probably around 4% since you have no actual read on him, can be significant

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
if villain bets the river hero folds

if hero calls turn he has to call the river the difference is he doesnt charge the draw an extra BB

[/ QUOTE ]


people make random desparation bluffs on the river. any play that results in folding gives up a portion of the pot

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

due to the size of the pot and the fact that the decision is very close, close to 0%, which I think is probably around 4% since you have no actual read on him, can be significant

[/ QUOTE ]

People are stuck on the read. That's fine. If you don't feel comfortable working off of PT stats you should probably never make this play. This hand is as protected from getting 3-bet by a worse hand as it gets. I'm opening from MP. I smooth call a flop cr and raise the turn. I play AA-JJ,88, AJ, KJ, QJ and sometimes 99, TT exactly like this. I'm almost never releasing this hand to a turn 3-bet. In many cases I'm glad of the action and will cap. Villian is not a maniac (based on stats yes). I've only got 2 outs if behind. And I've only got a lousy pair of 5s.

Krishan

[sthief09]

what are the lots of things that make it good. folding out a 9 outer is good. but they don't always have 9 outs. maybe folding an 8 too, but again I don't think an 8 folds. they're very similar. usually I choose the play that doesn't result in me ever folding.

as for not raising the flop in my hand, raising the turn with a draw is much more effective and it's important to mix in good hands if you're going to semibluff there. if you semibluff in the flop then raising the flop makes sense. in common situations like this I think it's important to mix it up, since it's more likely than usual the same situation will come up witht he same player again.

I wasn't raising for a free showdown there either. I was showing that seemingly sane players can semibluff 3-bet if they have a big draw. in that case he had I think 15 outs (don't remember the suits of the 9s and 4s)

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't raising for a free showdown there either. I was showing that seemingly sane players can semibluff 3-bet if they have a big draw. in that case he had I think 15 outs (don't remember the suits of the 9s and 4s)

[/ QUOTE ]

I know good players can semi-bluff 3-bet. I agree. Your hand is blind on blind with hand reading difficult at best. I'm not advocating raising turns for free showdowns with impunity. I'm advocating a free showdown raise in my hand which has a lot of things going for it.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

as for not raising the flop in my hand, raising the turn with a draw is much more effective and it's important to mix in good hands if you're going to semibluff there. if you semibluff in the flop then raising the flop makes sense. in common situations like this I think it's important to mix it up, since it's more likely than usual the same situation will come up witht he same player again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I semibluff on the flop. I also like getting 3-bet by worse hands with me calling down.

I use to make a lot of turn moves in which case your line makes more sense.

Why no river raise? You just sucked out on an overpair or T better kicker?

Krishan

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

as for not raising the flop in my hand, raising the turn with a draw is much more effective and it's important to mix in good hands if you're going to semibluff there. if you semibluff in the flop then raising the flop makes sense. in common situations like this I think it's important to mix it up, since it's more likely than usual the same situation will come up witht he same player again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I semibluff on the flop. I also like getting 3-bet by worse hands with me calling down.

I use to make a lot of turn moves in which case your line makes more sense.

Why no river raise? You just sucked out on an overpair or T better kicker?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]


board's paired. I considered raising but I felt like AT would definitely 3-bet, KT might 3-bet, and other tens probably wouldn't, so I'm against overpairs, T9s, and A4 pretty often. also, the fact that the river was a blank might get me 3-bet by an overpair and I can't fold

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

board's paired. I considered raising but I felt like AT would definitely 3-bet, KT might 3-bet, and other tens probably wouldn't, so I'm against overpairs, T9s, and A4 pretty often. also, the fact that the river was a blank might get me 3-bet by an overpair and I can't fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, missed the paired board. Nice hand.

Krishan

[ QUOTE ]
I had 87o and called the turn with the intention of folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? If you're not calling the river (unimproved) then calling the turn makes no sense.

[wheelz]

It does if he's getting raised for a free showdown

[marand]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had 87o and called the turn with the intention of folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? If you're not calling the river (unimproved) then calling the turn makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that the TAG knows this so if he bets the river then he can beat middle pair. But he could have been raising for a free showdown with a worse hand which he would have called down with with otherwise.

I don't know if I agree with calling the turn and folding the river UI, but I think that is the reason behind the move.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had 87o and called the turn with the intention of folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? If you're not calling the river (unimproved) then calling the turn makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]


unless you know a player very well and know he's capable of suspecting a free showdown, generally the river has to be a value bet since Jeff is stating by calling the turn that he's seeing a showdown. if they knew each other then a river bluff might be required since good players will often call the turn and fold the river in these situations

[TStoneMBD]

after a second look at this situation i think its strong poker to valuebluff the river after youve raised the turn here. i dont think checking down is an option. by villain not reraising the turn he is telling you that he doesnt have a jack. he could be calling down with a 4 and the pot is big enough that a good tag will call the turn and fold the river with an 8 or 66/77 more often than 1:8 times to make a river bet profitable.

in fact, i think a river bet follow through is so profitable that i think it changes (what i'd consider to be) a slightly marginal turn raise into the correct line.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
after a second look at this situation i think its strong poker to valuebluff the river after youve raised the turn here. i dont think checking down is an option. by villain not reraising the turn he is telling you that he doesnt have a jack. he could be calling down with a 4 and the pot is big enough that a good tag will call the turn and fold the river with an 8 or 66/77 more often than 1:8 times to make a river bet profitable.

in fact, i think a river bet follow through is so profitable that i think it changes (what i'd consider to be) a slightly marginal turn raise into the correct line.

[/ QUOTE ]


the majority of the players (1) aren't drawing while holding a hand that beats 55 and (2) either aren't sophisticated enough or don't give krishan credit for being sophisticated enough to raise for a free showdown after they calldown, so pretty much a call maens "I have a draw but cant beats 5s" or "I like my hand enough to call down"

[ISF]

I dont like it. On this board many tags will threebet you with a flush draw at least some of the time (I would threebet a tag that did this with Q9s Q10s and T9s type of hands that are all reasonable here) and even when they dont you gain almost nothing here as they have a ton of equity and may have bet the river if they missed.
As well a better hand will almost never fold to the turn raise as people do this all of the time with big aces or A4 type of hands. If you are going to raise the turn in this hand I think it really has to be with the intention of betting the river as that is the only way you ever get a better hand to fold.
I also think you should just fold this flop at least some of the time. I doubt the flop call is +ev so unless I have been folding alot I would just toss this on the flop.

[Jeff W]

Well, you got me back today. I can't believe I made that stupid call down w/ TT vs. QK. I'm beat there ~95% of the time and that's definitely a fold I can make if I just take time to think instead of reflexively calling down.

NH.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you got me back today. I can't believe I made that stupid call down w/ TT vs. QK. I'm beat there ~95% of the time and that's definitely a fold I can make if I just take time to think instead of reflexively calling down.

NH.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure was playing like [censored] overall though.

Krishan