A splendid negotiation

[Tommy Angelo]

I like to think I'm a pretty good negotiator but I never would have thought to do what Ulysses and I witnessed my buddy Alex do at the $15-30 game at AJ's last night.

Alex had been playing $6-12, with a live $3 drop on the button. The $15-30 has a dead $3 drop on the button. That was the crux of Alex's confusion, when, in the $15-30 game, he had the button, and several players limped. I was on his immediate right, babbling in his ear. I folded behind the limpers. Alex said, "I call." The small blind completed for one chip. Then Alex said, "Wait. I was confused. Can I still fold?"

He had not put any chips in yet. I spoke up, intending to help. "Sure, you can fold. No one objects, right?" I sorta asked the table. Then Alex mucked. Ninety nine out of hundred, that would have been the end of it. Well, this was the one in a hundred time. There was one guy, a stranger, who did in fact object, as he was quite entitled to do, especially since there was action, albeit small, behind Alex's stated intention to call. The objector spoke up, and the floorman was called, and the situation was rehashed, accurately. The ruling was going to be that Alex must put $15 in the pot, even though he had no cards. I was thinking that maybe the guy who objected didn't really intend this to be the final resolution to the situation. Was he really so intent on being so jerkish? But by now I was in a self-imposed penalty box of silence.

Alex was thinking the same thing when he went around the horn, pointing to each active player, asking, "Do you care if I not put in the $15?" Each player, in turn, said they did not care. Alex saved the objector til last. The objector said, "Yes, I object. I want your $15 in the pot."

Alex said fine, no problem. Holding his three $5 chips, Alex went around the horn again, and he asked each player, "If you win the pot, will you give me my $15 back?" They all said yes, quickly and happily, except for the objector, who said, "I will not."

Alex said fine. He put in the $15 and the hand commenced. The objector folded on the flop which meant Alex was for sure going to get his $15 back, and all was well and right in the world.

Tommy

[astroglide]

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Ulysses]

and all was well and right in the world.

And then someone knocked over a glass of wine.....

Hell of a game all night. My favorite hand, I had pocket Aces on the button. I'm a calling station pre-flop and it's capped around me (5 bets) 4-ways. They trap me but good in the middle... The flop is all rags, well, all rags except for the Ace that makes my set, and once again, they trap me in the middle. I do nothing but call and it is capped around me, 3 ways this time. My one remaining opponent at the river finally wises up and check-calls me. Nice pot.

[Softrock]

I haven't been to AJs in years - might have to make a trip up there. Is 15-30 usually the biggest game they spread?

[Ulysses]

Is 15-30 usually the biggest game they spread?

Yeah. 15-30 is as big as it goes. Weekend evenings are pretty reliably good - and usually pretty high-action games. Weekdays/weeknights are hit and miss.

[jen]

The floorman over at AJs says that they often spread a NL game on Sunday nights after the NL tournament. I've never tried the game myself.

Also, they seem to often have only have one 15-30 running, and the people sit in there forever. Call in, and even then, you'll probably still have to play 6-12 for awhile.

And... I think playing T9s is okay in this game... /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Ulysses]

The floorman over at AJs says that they often spread a NL game on Sunday nights after the NL tournament. I've never tried the game myself.

After spreading it a few of the last weeks, they didn't run the NL game this past Sunday. Apparently the house feels it is bad for business because some regular players have gotten busted badly in the game and then don't come in and play for a while. At least that's the company line. I was told that they are looking into spreading something else - perhaps some type of higher spread-limit game. A number of regular players are interested in the NL game, so there's a chance they might reconsider and have it after all.

jen's advice to call in for the 15-30 is good.

[M2d]

They should spread a 30-60 if they want a bigger game. LC's kinda has the market cornered on the big bet games, but no one really gets a bigger mid-limit game down.

[SittingBull]

Hence,The floorman made the correct decision. Once Alex said : "I call",his statement is binding--EVEN if he made an honest mistake.
In addition,giving money back to players at the poker table can be construed as collusion--EVEN if it is NOT in this circumstance. One should ALWAYS try to maintain the integrity of casino poker games. Giving chips to other players at the table IS counter-productive in maintaining the integrity of the game ---regardless of the reason for doing so.
There is USUALLY a rule AGAINST giving chips back to players at the table.
However,the winner could ALWAYS leave the table and give Alex some cash from his pocket while they are both away from the table. In this case,it would be ethically OK since the intention was NOT to collude.
Tommy,did U say that U were whispering,saying something to another player(Alex?)while the latter was in an ACTIVE hand. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif
Doing so IS definitely unethical in a poker game. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif
U should wait until the player becomes INACTIVE in the hand.
/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
Happy pokering, /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
SittingBull

[andyfox]

"did U say that U were whispering,saying something to another player(Alex?)while the latter was in an ACTIVE hand."

He said he was babbling. If he said, "I folded the 7 of clubs and the 3 of spades," then that would be a no-no. He didn't. I don't know what he was babbling about, but knowing Tommy it was about something far more interesting than the particular poker hand.

[Tommy Angelo]

"Tommy,did U say that U were whispering,saying something to another player(Alex?)while the latter was in an ACTIVE hand."

Yes.

"Doing so IS definitely unethical in a poker game."

Last night I played in a four-handed game for three hours in which Chinese was spoken constantly, during and after every hand. Was it illegal? Yes. Was it unethical? Not necessarily.

As to Alex's verbal declaration being binding, consider this. It's your casino and you are the floorman and dealer trainer. A situation like the one I described comes up, except that no one objects to Alex taking his money back.

What would you have trained your dealer to do? Would you want him to call you over to insist that Alex put $15 in the pot with no cards? Even though all the players are telling you they don't mind if he folds? After all, he did say "call." Or would you prefer that your dealer just deal the hand and shush.

The best rule in poker isn't even a rule. No harm no foul.

Tommy

[Boris]

I don't think the guy was being jerkish. Alex was able to weasel out of the situation because he has the gift of the gab. I would have agreed to return the $15 but only because it was Alex.

[Vehn]

So he was gonna call for $12 but not for $15?

[Tommy Angelo]

"So he was gonna call for $12 but not for $15?"

When he said "call," he was intending to call $3, thinking he was in a $6-12 game, where is it only $3 to call because there is a live $3 drop on the button.


Tommy

[Inthacup]

In addition, he should have said "Why didn't I get 3 cards? I've never played 7 card stud like this before". This would certainly boost the already great fish label he's giving himself. Please tell me he proceeded to run over the table.

[SittingBull]

posted as one rule and would require that my dealer follow ALL RULES that are explicitly stated in my casino.
Even if ALL other players agreed to break this rule in this case,I would NOT allow this.
The reason is that in the long run,there would be confusion about the stated rules. One tries to avoid creating confusion. Managing a poker room is tough enough when the rules are followed.
If the players were talking in Chinese,someone should have insisted that they do not speak this language while play is active.
I do believe that U would NOT give out any information to anyone about your hand;however,in this higher limit game,I think that NOT saying anything in anyone's ears while he is in the hand maintains the integrity of the game.
NOT ALL your opponents know that U are an honest player.
Hence,U MIGHT accidentally create a "cloud of suspicion".
If U are in a profitable game,U definitly want to try to avoid this .
Happy pokering, /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
SittingBull

[Ray Zee]

i would have made alex do something for the 15 bucks. like sing me a song or a little dance or something.

all kidding aside. if no one cares who cares. in bigger games the players generally are less picky about money so dont enforce every stinkin rule that can be to their benefit.

since someone complained alex gets to pay but got away. when i get to town next year alex is toast, along with tommy.

[bernie]

if i was a new player on this table, and a player pulled this crap, which also delays the action, id question the room im in. i dont care what limit it is. this is a great way to make newcomers to the game really wonder what theyre getting into.

this is almost like when 2 players that know each other, 'check it down' when HU, yet play someone they dont know hard. it's b.s. and the grandstanding just makes it worse.

sorry, but i dont think it was that splendid. no matter who the player was.

i wouldnt give my closest bud his money back. nothing makes a learning impression like the consequence of one's action. even verbally binding actions.

b

[Ulysses]

if i was a new player on this table, and a player pulled this crap, which also delays the action, id question the room im in. i dont care what limit it is. this is a great way to make newcomers to the game really wonder what theyre getting into.

I think that's a very fair statement. I was at the table and found the whole thing amusing and harmless, but I'll admit I was a little annoyed for one reason. It took forever to play the damn hand. Confusion, argument, negotiation, floorman, discussion, negotiation - it wasn't quick.

I think the resolution for this should have been the same as what happens in this game when someone calls without realizing there was a raise. They say they didn't mean to call a raise and ask if they can take their chips back. If nobody objects, done. If someone objects, the chips stay and they can muck or put in the extra chips to call the raise.

[Duke]

Just responding to the initial posting because half the responses are irritating, not one in particular.

Next week there's going to be a rant about why IWTSTH is a great rule for the game.

Tommy, it was a great bit of negotiating. It was an honest mistake. I'm of the opinion that it's only $15, and I wouldn't have cared either way. If $3 (15*my shot at winning it) means that much to my win rate, then I'm doing something quite wrong anyhow.

I guess that nit is just struggling through a mediocre poker career. Good luck to your buddy, and hope he keeps moving up. Eventually he'll get past the 30-60 "grinder" level. Or the 15-30 level. Whichever.

Fairness makes me sick sometimes. Fair==Evil, and I'll stand by that. Bitter old unsuccessful people whine about keeping things fair. And they're irritating as hell to play with. I'd sooner move to a friendlier game as play with that jerk a moment longer.

~D

[William]

What is AJ ? and where is it ?

Thanks /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Tommy Angelo]

"sorry, but i dont think it was that splendid. no matter who the player was."

Hey bernie, and anyone else who thinks Alex was out of line, well, of course he was. He always is. He's a loud spazz. But if would see him in action, it is doubtful you would be offended. It's one of those you-have-to-see-it-to-understand things. Or maybe it's just me and my easily-entertained-but-never-annoyed mindset. (I wrote an article about him called Perpetual Commotion and another called Poker Parallels Parking.) (He has been a full-timer for eight years and he makes and spends twice as much as me.)(His constant emotionalism at the table has blown to bits every theory I've ever conjectured about the essentialness of emotional detachment.)

I think it is possible to appreciate a clever negotiation without judging the correctness of it. We could even say that without some sort of breech in the norm, there is no cleverness. And in that light, I thought Alex's idea of asking everyone individually for his $15 back before the hand started, knowing that all but one would say yes, was a good story. That's all. I didn't mean to imply that what he did was legal, or should be. It wasn't and isn't.

Tommy

[bernie]

my response may have looked harsher than intended.

i wasnt offended. and it's not like i wouldve bit his head off for doing it. but i wouldve easily (tone of voice, with a shrug) said that there's action behind you, your call stands. i know, because ive had to do it before. as most of us have.

call me a nit, but when it comes to money in the pot, chips are chips. no matter when they go in. however, if no action had happened behind him, then yes, id agree with him taking his chips back. but the nanosecond action is binding behind him, the chips are gone.

another angle is some angle shooter waiting to get into the game could see this and use that as an angle, seeing how the table reacted. he could always get away with it once. misannouncing his intention, then correcting himself.

the wasted time, though, did bother me a little. ive just seen too many guys before hold up a game over some useless crap. some really need a big baby rattle as a card protector.

side note...

i also like to watch alot of stuff that happens on the table that isnt always popular on the table. like certain arguments and such. they do break up the monotany of the game. though they arent always good for the game. but when it's about chips in the pot....

remember, this is one thing that we pay the rake/time collection for. a quick game that keeps moving along with a dealer that makes sure the right chips go in at the right time based on the action. this just reminds me off the old home games where youre lucky to get 10 hands an hour.

b

[mike l.]

"When he said "call," he was intending to call $3, thinking he was in a $6-12 game, where is it only $3 to call because there is a live $3 drop on the button."

well that's stupid then. he should be told to put the $15 in. and he shouldnt do all that bullsh*t about "can i have the $15 back if you win the pot?" passing chips looks bad to people who dont regularly play there. i dont see anything splendid about any of this. i dont think it's cute or right at all.

[mike l.]

"It's one of those you-have-to-see-it-to-understand things."

then why post it since many people wont have seen it and therefore wont get it?

"I didn't mean to imply that what he did was legal, or should be."

titling his negotiation "splendid" definitely implies that you favored it.

[Tommy Angelo]

Me: I didn't mean to imply that what he did was legal, or should be.

You: titling his negotiation "splendid" definitely implies that you favored it.

Well yes, I did "favor" it. I very much favored it. I favored it because I thought it was splendid, while knowing full well that it was illegal. I don't see any mutual exclusivity between splendidness and legalness. The final scam in The Sting comes to mind.

Tommy