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View Full Version : 5/10 Semi Deep Stacks. Muck KK preflop here or postflop or never?

whitelime
08-25-2005, 01:42 AM
Opponent is 50/23. I've reraised quite a few people preflop on this table and each time they've laid it down. Haven't played much with this opponent (300 hands).

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($1886)
BB ($490)
UTG ($765.25)
MP ($677.80)
CO ($961.79)
Button ($2723.57)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls $10, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $45</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $145</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $350</font>, Hero calls $200.

Flop: ($720) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $718</font>, Hero calls ???
Big_Jim
08-25-2005, 01:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Opponent is 50/23.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.
radioheadfan
08-25-2005, 01:49 AM
I hope you checked the flop with the intent of CRing all in. No way I muck on that flop.
fimbulwinter
08-25-2005, 02:31 AM
rfe
FoxwoodsFiend
08-25-2005, 02:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Opponent is 50/23.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has to be a joke right? Only reason to not push preflop is to get more money in the pot before pushing there. You think a 50/23 player isn't getting married to JJ or QQ here?

Just saw Big Jim touched on this also...didn't mean to steal his thunder with quoting the numbers
AZK
08-25-2005, 09:10 AM
50/23 is true. And he is good.
turnipmonster
08-25-2005, 09:57 AM
of course a high pfr doesn't say anything about this guy's reraising standards.
CamelZoo
08-25-2005, 11:31 AM
devil's advocate... for all those who replied to post advocating C/R all in, etc. how many times in your experience have you been 3-bet pf and not seen AA? LAG's eat these moments up, where an opponent won't give them credit for a made hand, in this case AA, because of numbers like 50/23. i'm probably not going to fold here, but it should at least cross your mind before you throw your stack in, no?
CamelZoo
08-25-2005, 11:32 AM
ps i don't anyone here would ever advocate folding KK in this spot pf
greg nice
08-25-2005, 12:56 PM
like someone already said, i hope you planned on c/r all in as this is a flop that you want. otherwise fold preflop.
whitelime
08-25-2005, 09:32 PM
A few thoughts on the comments I've seen.

1) Just because I call preflop doesn't mean I have to get all my money in on the flop. The whole "if you did this, then you must do that" line of thinking is pretty flawed. Our opponent's play postflop will define his hand more.

2) Some of you are overemphasizing the fact that the player is a 50/23. Some of the most winningest players on 5/10 6 max are 50/20-ish. Maybe they will open or call raises with a wide variety of hands, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will 3-bet preflop with crap when stacks are deep.

Despite this, I got my stack in and was of course up against AA. The reason I posted this is because I'm sure many of us have been in similar situations before with KK when the other guy is basically turning his AA face-up on the table and yet we all get our money in anyway. I really think it's possible to laydown KK in situations like this with more information on the opponent.
Big_Jim
08-25-2005, 09:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Some of you are overemphasizing the fact that the player is a 50/23

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only information about villian that you have given us. If you gave more, I might reconsider.
lapoker17
08-25-2005, 09:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've reraised quite a few people preflop on this table and each time they've laid it down

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure why everyone ignored it, but to me this is the most important thing in the hand. Given this info, c/r all in on non A flop is by far the best play - given your current table image, you have to go broke here.
08-25-2005, 10:10 PM
just curious, was wondering what 50/23 means about the player...is this something you get from poker tracker..or some other way of rating a player???
Big_Jim
08-25-2005, 10:13 PM
Excellent point.
Big_Jim
08-25-2005, 10:24 PM
50/23 means he plays 50 percent of his hands volunarily, and raises 23 percent of them pre-flop.

It's something you get from PokerTracker.
FoxwoodsFiend
08-26-2005, 12:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A few thoughts on the comments I've seen.

1) Just because I call preflop doesn't mean I have to get all my money in on the flop. The whole "if you did this, then you must do that" line of thinking is pretty flawed. Our opponent's play postflop will define his hand more.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that you don't just push because you call. But I think you push for the SAME REASON that you called pre-flop. Namely, you think his range of hands is wide enough that you're ahead a vast majority of the time. The preflop call doesn't commit you to getting it all in on the flop, but thinking consistent with your preflop thinking will dictate going all-in.
[ QUOTE ]

2) Some of you are overemphasizing the fact that the player is a 50/23. Some of the most winningest players on 5/10 6 max are 50/20-ish. Maybe they will open or call raises with a wide variety of hands, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will 3-bet preflop with crap when stacks are deep.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. While it's not NECESSARILY true that this guy can 3-bet with junk, it's definitely more likely than a player who's 16/6. All we have to go on is a guess based on pf numbers, and they definitely indicate you should be more willing to get it all in than you normally would.