kk, aa early hand 109

[citanul]

two observed friend hands tonight, in honor of the many threads on correctly plying your big hands we have lately:

both just sat down, no reads on anyone involved with either hand, stacks even, blinds 10/15.

hand 1:

hero is dealt KK in the late middle position, mp raises to 50, hero raises to 150, button raises to 300, mp folds, hero?

hand 2:

hero is dealt aa in mp
utg raises to 30, hero raises to 100, bb calls, utg calls.

flop 824, two spades, hero has the As.

check, bet 75, hero raises to 175, bb checkraises all in, bettor folds, hero?

citanul

[johnnybeef]

1. push

2. call

[pearljam]

[ QUOTE ]
1. push

2. call

[/ QUOTE ]

[citanul]

come on man, let's have some guesses of what your opponent could have to go with those one word answers.

[johnnybeef]

well, in case one, the bet screams call me. but, i have a rule about folding kk preflop (for more information, check out hoh vol.1 chapter four [i'd find the exact page, but im 8 tabling currently], i figure if it is good enough for a world champ, its good enough for me.) in case 2, a check push like that is usually a draw, and with the ace of spades, you are never getting your money in dead.

[Myst]

Hand 1:

If the player was super solid, the mini3rd raise in is going to be AA-KK like 100% of the time. Since hero has KK, villain must have AA 99.9% of the time. However, since you have no reads, we cant go on that info. Hero must push, ala Harrington like reasoning.

Hand 2.

The fact that hero has the Ace of spades makes it LESS likely that the BB checkraised all in on a draw. This is either going to be an overpair or a made set. BB cold calls a reraise 100, which makes a higher overpair more likely than a made set, as logical opponents would fold 44 or 22, and only a loose one with 88. Hero must call.

[djj6835]

The first hand I would put villain on AA-QQ or AK and against really bad players you can throw in AQ AJ and pairs down to about tens.

The second hand could be a variety of hands, he could just have a flush draw or an overpair. He could also have a set although I would be surprised to see him push with a set so I think the other two options are more likely.

That said I push the first expecting to be ahead the majority of the time and call the second also expecting to probably have the best hand.

I don't know 109s, but if people play as transparently as you make it sound, I think you fold the second one. He could have a flush draw and be making a huge semibluff here after trying to check through for a free card, but your having the As makes that unlikely. So, he's representing a set. I don't know if at the 109s you can trust a player that much, but I'd certainly fold if I were playing with 2+2ers.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

If the player was super solid, the mini3rd raise in is going to be AA-KK like 100% of the time. Since hero has KK, villain must have AA 99.9% of the time. However, since you have no reads, we cant go on that info. Hero must push, ala Harrington like reasoning.

Hand 2.

The fact that hero has the Ace of spades makes it LESS likely that the BB checkraised all in on a draw. This is either going to be an overpair or a made set. BB cold calls a reraise 100, which makes a higher overpair more likely than a made set, as logical opponents would fold 44 or 22, and only a loose one with 88. Hero must call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I didn't think about the fact that 109ers would fold small PPs preflop /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[freemoney]

fold on 2nd hand would be awful against about 99.99999% of opponents, hand 1 screams AA but whatever if my biggest leak is not folding kk pre i can deal with that so i get it in there.

[citanul]

for hand 1 at least, if you knew the villain was a decent 2+2er, what range do you put him on?

hand 2 is harder because well, decent 2+2ers don't call big chunks of their stack out of position in level 1 with anything but the occasional trap.

citanul

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
come on man, let's have some guesses of what your opponent could have to go with those one word answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter. In neither case can you narrow the range of hands enough that the answers aren't:

1. Push.
2. Call.

[freemoney]

unless i am playing a guy who i think is a really donkey when i raise to 300 here i will probably never have AA against a solid player.

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
for hand 1 at least, if you knew the villain was a decent 2+2er, what range do you put him on?

hand 2 is harder because well, decent 2+2ers don't call big chunks of their stack out of position in level 1 with anything but the occasional trap.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

If he was 2+2, I would fold the 1st hand, and call the 2nd hand, and expect JJ,QQ a vast majority of the time, b/c no 2+2 is gonna cold call a reraise with 44 or 22, and only a drunk 2+2er with 88.

[freemoney]

it depends in what sense the player is a good 2+2'er but at the 109s if the villian knows you are a good regular then he will have AA less than the average player.

[Weatherhead03]

Folding hand one is bad IMO. For the times you are correct about him holding AA you will be wrong so many other times that it wouldnt be a correct move to fold KK pf.

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
it depends in what sense the player is a good 2+2'er but at the 109s if the villian knows you are a good regular then he will have AA less than the average player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, if he isnt TRICKY, which is the vast majority of solid 2+2ers, fold KK.

[durron597]

Hand 1: Hand range AA-QQ/AK, maybe JJ, thus call.

Hand 2: Sets aren't usually played this fast, I'm thinking overpair, maybe flush draw, maybe flushdraw + gutshot? Call.

[freemoney]

even when i "know" villian has aa i still call, you just have to be right way too large a majority of the time to make folding right.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
for hand 1 at least, if you knew the villain was a decent 2+2er, what range do you put him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know each other and both think you are good, it is just head games here. Against most such players it would be a call/push because I think they would rep aces without them, more often than they would have them and be double tricking you. If it's me after I finish reading my game theory book, it won't matter. You can't win because I will rep and fake rep in unexploitable percentages.

As for the original question, I don't know. I think in the $33s they have QQ or JJ often enough for you to push. In the $55s I think it means AA or KK too often, and although I might not fold it, I think it might be a good fold. In the $109s maybe people are just repping AA often enough that it isn't a fold.

edit: $33s I mean too often NOT to push. Also, I'm quite sure I've never folded KK preflop, but I haven't played 24554325425424 of these yet.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
even when i "know" villian has aa i still call, you just have to be right way too large a majority of the time to make folding right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit: I got limp reraised by a guy who I thought was decent player a few days ago when I had KK a few days ago in $1/$2 NL at the MGM Grand. I considered folding but then I pushed and he called with AK and I won.

Don't fold KK preflop.

[yabastid]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

If the player was super solid, the mini3rd raise in is going to be AA-KK like 100% of the time. Since hero has KK, villain must have AA 99.9% of the time. However, since you have no reads, we cant go on that info. Hero must push, ala Harrington like reasoning.

Hand 2.

The fact that hero has the Ace of spades makes it LESS likely that the BB checkraised all in on a draw. This is either going to be an overpair or a made set. BB cold calls a reraise 100, which makes a higher overpair more likely than a made set, as logical opponents would fold 44 or 22, and only a loose one with 88. Hero must call.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
fold on 2nd hand would be awful against about 99.99999% of opponents, hand 1 screams AA but whatever if my biggest leak is not folding kk pre i can deal with that so i get it in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just said what I was thinking...

[ilya]

hand 1 fold/push/call & check-raise-all-in on any flop depending on opponent

hand 2 call

[adanthar]

1)You will never get anyone to admit the 'correct' play here, but if somebody *good* did this and they are the type largely incapable of making these kinds of plays, flop a set. (Of course, I've folded KK twice PF and both were me in the bathroom at the time, so I'm not exactly following my own advice here.)

2)I don't think this can ever be anything but a call particularly since even a 2+2'er can get tricky and play something like kings this way.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
come on man, let's have some guesses of what your opponent could have to go with those one word answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Queens

2. Eights

[citanul]

so does taht make your answers:

a) push
b) fold

?

citanul

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

If the player was super solid, the mini3rd raise in is going to be AA-KK like 100% of the time. Since hero has KK, villain must have AA 99.9% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why isn't it that villain has AA 86% of the time (or 6/7)?

[fnord_too]

hand 1: call and play properly post flop. I hate putting in the third (or higher!) raise with KK pre-flop (unless I know the opponents are complete donks who will put in the third raise with hands like TT and pay off a push).

Hand 2: I think you have to call here. BB could have a lot of hands you are ahead of (two spades, top pair crap kicker) and a lot of hands you are not in awful shape against (like 2p, where you have runner runner flush outs plus 5 outs then 8 outs for a bigger 2p or set, which is good for ~31% equity in that unusual case). It sucks to see a set here, but I think the pot is too big in relation to your stack to let go now. (If my math is correct you are getting just over 2:1 on your call, and I think you probably have > 50% equity against BB's range.)

Edit to add that an overpair is also a very likely BB hand in hand 2. I would not be surprised to see 99-JJ here, and maybe even QQ/KK.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
hand 1: call and play properly post flop. I hate putting in the third (or higher!) raise with KK pre-flop (unless I know the opponents are complete donks who will put in the third raise with hands like TT and pay off a push).

[/ QUOTE ]

as a related question then, at what stakes sng is your default play to push because you think they are donks who will call with much less than KK?

citanul

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hand 1: call and play properly post flop. I hate putting in the third (or higher!) raise with KK pre-flop (unless I know the opponents are complete donks who will put in the third raise with hands like TT and pay off a push).

[/ QUOTE ]

as a related question then, at what stakes sng is your default play to push because you think they are donks who will call with much less than KK?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I only make the donk call after I have seen them make donk plays. I haven't really played below the 50 level, so maybe I would change that approach there, but in general I will give people credit for not being complete idiots until they prove otherwise. There are some cases where I will make a marginal call or value bet or such where the possibility that someone is a donk affects my decision (that is, I haven't seen them do anything dubious, but I haven't really seen anything at all out of them. That brings up a point: if I have no hands on someone prior to an STT start, there is a better chance they are a losing player since winning players stick around (in the STT scene, not necessarily the particular STT you are in) and you get hand histories on them.)

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, if he isnt TRICKY, which is the vast majority of solid 2+2ers, fold KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

To get me to fold KK preflop you're going to have to pry those cards from my cold, dead hands.

[schwza]

i like the line of just calling with KK and then c/r a-i any non-A flop. i think that's the best way not to lose a hand like JJ.

AA hand: call. myst's explanation is goot.

[Newt_Buggs]

There are just too many donks, even at the $109s I've seen 33 turned up here. For hand 1 I'm pushing, but I'm not sure if that's better than just calling. If they're a donk reraising something like TT or AK here they're also probably going to be stupid enough to call a push.

I have nothing new to add to hand 2

also, as fnord mentioned, if I don't have notes on someone or already recognize them as good then they're probably a weaker player or someone who just changed SNs

[Lmn55d]

you're right.