what do you think of each street?

[mike l.]

15-30 good game as usual 9 handed. 4 fish types limp, i call in the sb w/ J3o. bb pretty passive checks.

the flop is Jd8d2s. i check hoping to checkraise my monster and clear the field or check-fold if it comes back to me for two bets cold. instead bb bets 3players call and i call.

the turn is 6s. i bet, bb calls, cutoff calls.

river is Js. i bet.

comments on all streets appreciated. results later.

[Rick Nebiolo]

mike,

i hate to make these "long overcalls" of a lead bet and several calls with top mediocre pair no kicker and a dangerous board. in other words, the number of opponents may increase your pot odds but the chances you are best or even drawing live are diminished exponentially (well almost). even if you hit your "kicker" you will be paying off second best so often it just doesn't make sense to me. i don't make these overcalls but i'm open to arguement.

~ rick

[glen]

I fold on the flop here. I would try to check-raise the button, but once you have a multiway pot, I agree with rick that you may get trapped in here with the second best hand, and there's a lot of ways that can happen with this flop. I bet you won the hand, and probably got called by one or both players, but I would wait for better opportunities. I would probably check the river here, too, if you're against people who might not raise the flop with JTo, or J9, and then a busted draw might make a desperation bet.

[Ed Miller]

I would fold on the flop. You may have the best hand, but you easily may not and be drawing to 2-3 outs on a coordinated board. Even if you do have the best hand, there are a whole lot of turn cards you don't want to see, and you are first to act, leaving you betting into the field. If the pot were raised preflop, then the call would be better, but as it is... I think I would just dump it.

[bernie]

preflop. im not sure id complete this even if it was for only 1/3 a bet. suited i would. but this is truly a crap hand.

flop. fold youre putting way too much in for a possible 3 outer. what do you put a 'pretty passive' BB on that he is c/reraising with on the flop? would he do this with a draw? if so, what do the other bettors have then?

id wait for a better hand. btw...you do know that your kicker sucks, right?

cya

b

[andyfox]

With a flop of J-8-6 it's unlikely (though not impossible) anyone has two pair, and this likelihood is increased when nobody raises the big blind's flop bet. I don't think I could throw away top pair here getting 10:1.

Then again, I would have thrown the hand away pre-flop. Fruit plates are free at Commerce at the 15-30 level, the food servers really appreciate a $5 tip.

I like Mike's lead at the turn. With no raise, I'd feel somewhat better about my hand, but I would have planned to check it down without improvement on the river.

[Ulysses]

what do you put a 'pretty passive' BB on that he is c/reraising with on the flop?

Are you reading a different post, bernie? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Ulysses]

Pre-flop: Don't like it. I love to call w/ just about anything in the 1-chip small blind, but hands like J3o I throw away because I think I lose more all the times I get stuck with second best than I make when it holds up. I'd much rather call 23o.

Flop: Well, BB may well have you beat with something like J7. I'd expect Jack/kicker to raise, though something like J9 might be out there. Still, I think hands like diamond draws, 9T and middle pair are more likely. I think you have to call here.

Turn: You're going to call, so might as well bet. BB may well fold J5, knowing he has kicker problems.

River: I would check it unimproved, but now that the Jack comes you can definitely get a call from A8. Good bet.

Here's the thing. You could easily still lose to J9 from one of the callers. I think you played well post-flop, but I think you get outkicked enough times that folding pre-flop is probably better.

[34TheTruth34]

[Ulysses]

Depending on the opponents, it might not be horrible to check-fold the turn if you don't improve....

[mike l.]

preflop yeah i fold sometimes since it is one of the ugliest hands one could look at. calling is not awful in a good passive game where the players play predictably postflop if you are a player who can get away from top pair/no kicker.

on the flop im getting 10-1 on my call to close the action after i check. if im behind i have 2 or 3 outs depending on what im up against and provided im not drawing dead to the bb's J8. all the flop callers wouldve raised the bb w/ two pair (and probably a set) as well as a J w/ a decent kicker (say above a 9 or T). it's possible the bb is betting a diamond draw or a J or T9 as well as hands better than a pair of Js. so there is a decent chance my hand is good on the flop which is why i never considered dumping on the flop. i had considered checkraising the flop to make people drawing really pay if my hand was good (which obviously, given the weak flop play by all, my sense was it was) and also to see if bb reraised in which case i could checkfold the turn w/ out improvement. she wouldnt jam w/ a flush draw like that.

when the 6 comes on the turn id like to see where im at and not let a river card come for free that beats me if im best. i can easily fold to a raise on the turn. so i bet and was called in two places. i was felling better about my hand but still planning to check the river, mainly to induce a bluff from the cutoff though if he missed.

when the river J came i decided i could still safely fold to a raise and i could get paid off by a lot of medium pocket pairs, a pair of 8s, and other hands. as it was i wasnt called. both players looked at their cards in disgust in that way players with busted draws do. i guess i shouldve checked the river after all.

thanks for the comments guys.

[andyfox]

Since it was the big blind that bet, even if he has a somewhat better kicker than your 3, it's possible you'll get half the pot without improvement, since his kicker may not play either. I too would never have considered folding on the flop.

[mikelow]

If you are going to play this piece of ****, bet the flop and find out where you stand. Checking just asks for trouble.

[bernie]

it wasnt clear who bet out on the flop. so i did a worse case with the BB c/r'ing. even so, 2 bets back to you, with this hand, is an easy fold. the fact the 'passive' BB just 3 bet after you called 2 cold is a bad spot to be in

many passive players c/r hands would be very similar to their 3 betting standards, IMO.

b

[bernie]

remember this term
"bb pretty passive checks. " this was preflop description...

"Flop: Well, BB may well have you beat with something like J7. I'd expect Jack/kicker to raise, though something like J9 might be out there. Still, I think hands like diamond draws, 9T and middle pair are more likely. I think you have to call here."

passive players generally dont bet draws. and they dont bet much less 3 bet with bad kickers. which means he isnt folding J5 on the turn. his hand would be much stonger.

i think he played postflop, especially the flop, poorly given the players involved. also facing 2 bets for a possible 3 outer that may not be good anyway if it hits. i think he'd need much better than a possible 8-1 to catch an unlikely 5 outer here.

sorry, but i gotta disagree

b

[mike l.]

"If you are going to play this piece of ****, bet the flop and find out where you stand."

if i had bet the flop and then bb raised and cutoff cold called i wouldve check-folded the turn if there had been a bet. that is a lot of ifs though. but the fact the turn wouldve likely been checked through, rather than see someone semibluff me out, points to how J3o can be profitable for one chip if played well in the 15-30 sb. if the game were tighter or more aggressive it'd be a definite fold.

however, and i didnt mention this in my post, the button played sort of aggressively so i was hoping it might get checked to him (or a played in middle position who could easily bet without a J, but could have a lot of hands w/ an 8 in them) and then i could checkraise and try to clear the field of some overcards, gutshots, and thin or backdoor draws. that's why i checked the flop.

[mike l.]

"it wasnt clear who bet out on the flop."

what exactly was unclear about this:

"the flop is Jd8d2s. i check hoping to checkraise my monster and clear the field or check-fold if it comes back to me for two bets cold. instead bb bets 3players call and i call."

[bernie]

i just caught that. i thought you were calling 2 cold and the bb 3 bet behind you.

i was reading it too fast.

in this case, ahem, i wouldve called also. however, im not sure id have bet the turn.

sorry for the misread

b

[Ulysses]

passive players generally dont bet draws. and they dont bet much less 3 bet with bad kickers. which means he isnt folding J5 on the turn. his hand would be much stonger.

The draws I listed were referring to what the callers were calling with. As I pointed out, it's quite likely that BB has a Jack. Passive players often bet out w/ top pair/weak kicker. They also often fold to turn bets with a hand like that. As I said in my first response to you, I have no idea what 3-bet you are talking about.

also facing 2 bets for a possible 3 outer that may not be good anyway if it hits.

Once again, are you reading the same post? When did mike face 2 bets? He check-called the flop then led the betting.

sorry, but i gotta disagree

Well, it's going to be tough to agree on anything when we're talking about vastly different action.


Edited to add: Just read Bernie's last post. A suggestion, if I may. Next time, Bernie, perhaps re-read the post when someone asks "are we talking about the same post here?"

[bernie]

i was a blind, moronic idiot in responding to this post.
ill have to slow down reading a little. ill steal some ritalin form a neighbor kid

now, if you dont mind, i have a rock to crawl under

b

[mikelow]

If you bet, get raised and cold-called, I would be folding on the flop.

[mike l.]

"If you bet, get raised and cold-called, I would be folding on the flop."

well then you would be playing incorrectly and it's not close. the chances you are ahead (on the draw heavy board) combined with your outs to hit two pair or trips (bb could have 82 for two pair) combined with the pot and implied odds you are getting closing the flop action makes this a no-brainer call and a horrid fold.