Top 2 Pair on the Flop

[robertsonjohn]

Table is somewhat loose, but nothing like this hand would suggest - this was an anomoly. I am tight, so my raises usually get a degree of respect. MP2 is a moron. Everyone else is a bit loose, but not crazy.

Party Poker $1/$2 Texas Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666"> </font>
UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG + 1 calls,

Flop: (14.5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB bets, UTG + 1 folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, BB raises, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB calls,

Turn: (16.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls,

River: (20.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO raises, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls,

Final Pot: 28.75 BB

[cold_cash]

Call the flop 3-bet. Raise the turn.

[robertsonjohn]

What is the purpose of raising the turn? I'm pretty sure I'm beat at this point, and I'm just calling to try to make a full house.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the purpose of raising the turn? I'm pretty sure I'm beat at this point, and I'm just calling to try to make a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you so sure you are beat? Does villain have Q 10 that often? I don't think so. I'd want a little more of a read to come to that conclusion.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the purpose of raising the turn? I'm pretty sure I'm beat at this point, and I'm just calling to try to make a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's going to have K9 or J9 here a ton.

The pot is big and you'll have a great chance to protect your hand against one-card gutshots on the turn.

I think you should have raised the turn anyway, (even after capping the flop), but by just calling the flop 3-bet you encourage the BB to bet again, and cut the odds for MP2 and the CO even more, (because the pot would have been smaller).

By just calling the turn bet you're giving MP2 and the CO a great price to call w/ a single Q or T. They'll probably call anyway, but that's fine. Raise and make them do it with the worst of it.

[adsman]

I don't raise this preflop on a loose table. The only way the the turn card helped anyone is if they were specifically holding 88 or T7. I doubt anyone with those hands was staying in with a capped flop. Add to this everything that coldcash said and raise the goddamn turn.

[jrz1972]

Fold PF.

Raise the turn.

Edit: Coldcash is right that you should just call the flop 3-bet, since this gives you the best chance of being able to raise the turn and thus protect your hand.

[robertsonjohn]

The table has been nowhere near as loose as this hand would lead you to believe. Because I have a very tight image, every time I have raised before, it has usually folded everyone behind me except for maybe the BB and sometimes MP2 who is a passive moron who calls with bad cards.

My thinking in capping the flop was making it 2 more bets to the two behind me, hoping to get a least one of them to go away. If they both stuck around, I also felt that this built the pot up enough to give me odds to call to my 4 outs if I am indeed behind. I guess the consensus is that the turn raise has a better chance of folding anyone.

I felt I was likely behind to a set or straight by the turn, but also knew that there was no way to make anyone fold, so that’s why no more follow-up bets.

With a pot this big, I couldn’t find a fold on the river despite the possible straight and flush, but if BB had re-raised the CO’s raise, would anyone have laid this down?

[GTSamIAm]

I'd raise the turn.

[Sarge85]

I'm definately getting a raise in on the turn.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[ricdaman]

Why oh why did you raise PF in MP1 with KJo? KJo is a fold / call hand for me, with the emphasis on fold. It's a trouble hand to say the least. It's so hard to tell if you have the best hand or not with a hand like KJo. What if the board comes K25 rainbow and you are heads up and villian bets? Is your K good, or is it beat by KQ, KK, AK, or AA? What about if the board comes J high? KJo is a trouble hand and I only play it in LP, usually after most everybody else folds. It's a downright horrible hand at a loose table, especially in EP and MP.

That said, why didn't you raise the turn? You capped the flop, why not raise the turn. If BB 3-bets the turn, THEN slow down, but not before then. I put BB on a wide number of hands that you have beat, including AK and K9. I don't think he has AA or KK since he didn't re-raise pre-flop. QT is a possibility, but let's find that out on the turn by raising. You don't have enough information to make that determination on the flop. You have to raise the turn to get a better idea as to where you are at.

Now, on the river our quiet CO suddenly raises this 3-heart board. Did he catch his runner-runner? Maybe. You did the right thing in calling. MP2 being a moron, I put him on Jx or 9x. BB's hand isn't so strong that he 3-bets. I'm guessing you had BB beat on the flop, and that he would have called your turn-raise had you made it.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Why oh why did you raise PF in MP1 with KJo? KJo is a fold / fold hand for me in EP at a loose table

[/ QUOTE ]

amended the post /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Roadstar]

Only time you should consider raising preflop is if its folded to you and you're in LATE position IMO

[USDaniels]

PF - I don't usually raise KJo unless for deception. Just call.
FLOP- good.
TURN- I think you need to raise this. The flop action was scary and this card is connected, but raising here might tell you where you stand as well as protect. The straight draws are spotty but the flush draw is a concern. Is the thinking that raising doesn't protect because the pot is already too big? Even so, I'd rather risk one to get three more in there.
RIVER-looks like a tough break, but you have to call down, the pot is too big (I guess you don't have to, but I would.)

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Only time you should consider raising preflop is if its folded to you and you're in LATE position IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

that's fine. that is standard, "by the book" poker. no problem with that. there are other factors besides text book that cause me to consider and raise here, but not at the table OP described.