Min check raise

[iceman5]

In my experience, when you get minimum check raised on the flop in a raised pot, the guy has a monster (set) maybe 90% of the time. But Im not sure if it always means the same thing in higher stakes games. Here are 2 hands

#1) $2/$4 NL

UTG limps, MP limps, I raise to $20 with AA. Only the UTG calls.
I have a full stack and he has only $175 to start the hand

Pot is $50. The flop comes 965 rainbow. He checks, I bet $40 and he check raises the min to $80.

I can
a) fold fearing a set
b) push all in since hes so short
c) call and get the rest in on the turn

Hand #2) $5/$10NL

MP has posted a blind. UTG limps. I raise to $50 with KK. Only UTG calls.

Pot is $125. The flop is 994. He checks, I bet $100 and he check raises the min to $200. He started with about $800 and I have him covered.

Ive only seen him play a few hands but I get the "fishy impression" Hes playing things like 75s UTG so although Ive only seen a few hands, he doesnt know anything about position so I have to assume hes not good.

At lower stakes, I would lean towards folding right now because its going to cost me my whole stack to find out if he has a 9 or 44. I just dont see people min check raising in a raised pot like that with 88 or something like that.

If you dont want to fold, lets say you call and then he bets $300 at the the turn. What now?

[ObnxNole]

Hand # 1: No way I am folding with AA when the guy only $175 to start the hand. Put the rest in the middle.

Hand #2: I usually like to bet about half the pot with an overpair and trips on board but as you played it is fine. I would call his min raise and tread lightly after that. In my experience a min raise on the flop screams of a monster hand about %90 percent of the time. Hope it worked out for you.
-Obnxnole-

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand # 1: No way I am folding with AA when the guy only $175 to start the hand. Put the rest in the middle.

Hand #2: I usually like to bet about half the pot with an overpair and trips on board but as you played it is fine. I would call his min raise and tread lightly after that. In my experience a min raise on the flop screams of a monster hand about %90 percent of the time. Hope it worked out for you.
-Obnxnole-

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, to make this easier. On hand #2, I did call his flop check raise and a 7 hit the turn. He bet $300. Whats you definition of "tread lightly" here?

[turnipmonster]

you guys are saying a minraise screams monster but I think it's more of a checkraise in general. the amount of the checkraise doesn't matter much.

would your thoughts change if the guy raise the full pot?

I generally treat minraises the same as I would pot raises with made hands, I think the only real difference is when you were betting a draw and get minraised. it doesn't seem to have much of an upside for this reason alone.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

OK, to make this easier. On hand #2, I did call his flop check raise and a 7 hit the turn. He bet $300. Whats you definition of "tread lightly" here?

[/ QUOTE ]

if I called the cr if would be because I didn't think he had a 9 so I'd put him in on the turn every time. calling the flop cr and folding the turn is chip burning imo, he's going to bet the turn.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience, when you get minimum check raised on the flop in a raised pot, the guy has a monster (set) maybe 90% of the time. But Im not sure if it always means the same thing in higher stakes games. Here are 2 hands

#1) $2/$4 NL

UTG limps, MP limps, I raise to $20 with AA. Only the UTG calls.
I have a full stack and he has only $175 to start the hand

Pot is $50. The flop comes 965 rainbow. He checks, I bet $40 and he check raises the min to $80.

I can
a) fold fearing a set
b) push all in since hes so short
c) call and get the rest in on the turn

Hand #2) $5/$10NL

MP has posted a blind. UTG limps. I raise to $50 with KK. Only UTG calls.

Pot is $125. The flop is 994. He checks, I bet $100 and he check raises the min to $200. He started with about $800 and I have him covered.

Ive only seen him play a few hands but I get the "fishy impression" Hes playing things like 75s UTG so although Ive only seen a few hands, he doesnt know anything about position so I have to assume hes not good.

At lower stakes, I would lean towards folding right now because its going to cost me my whole stack to find out if he has a 9 or 44. I just dont see people min check raising in a raised pot like that with 88 or something like that.

If you dont want to fold, lets say you call and then he bets $300 at the the turn. What now?

[/ QUOTE ]

On hand #1, you're getting better than 2:1 with a push... you're often behind, but you've got more than .33 EV.

On hand #2: a lot of tricky $5/10 dudes love to splash around against tight opponents when there's a pair on the flop, and no big cards. I see that flop minraise a lot, and opponent is usually full of crap. (Here's opponent's likely thought process: tight pf raiser might have AK, and then he will fold; he's so tight he might even fold jacks.) A good strategy with kings or aces on this kind of way ahead/way behind board is to call their flop raise, then raise (or check-raise) allin on the turn. You'll see a smaller pp or air a lot more often than you'll see a 9, and you'll get a call from a smaller overpair.

If you held queens or jacks, it might be good to end the hand on the flop, since there are some overcards that could come and make you nervous on the turn. 3-bet the flop, consider folding if pushed allin.

[iceman5]

Hand #1) Im sure most people just push in because the guy is short. Thats what I did and of course he had a set. I knew he had a set. I think this is a fold even when he IS short. What eles is he limping UTG and calling a 5BB raise with that would min check raise that flop? The flop is 965. If he check raised all in, I might believe he had a pair and draw but even that is hard to believe. He would have to have 76 or 98. Not many people play that UTG and call a raise with it.

Hand #2) I raised the turn all in. He had A9.

Both hands I felt like a complete idiot because the min check raise is so damned obvious that its a monster that I think folding is correct on both cases. In the KK hand, for every tricky player who does that with 77 or with nothing, there are 10 guys who have 44 or have a 9. I just think folding to the original check raise is the best play. I had been folding in that situation for a long time at lower stakes, and I wish I did this time. He doesnt know Im folding KK

I will admit though that I do check raise a preflop raiser sometimes with any pocket pair, but I dont min check raise. Why? Because they wont fold. Thats why people continue to make that min check raise. Because they know you wont fold an overpair and they can suck you in. In seems too obvious to work, but it still does.

[ObnxNole]

Iceman: When i say "treading lightly" I mean play the hand very cautiously. It's a casebook situation where you are way ahead or way behind so how you play the hand is up to your judgment.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
would your thoughts change if the guy raise the full pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeah, I generally feel that a minraise shows more strength as it looks like they want you in the pot.

[flawless_victory]

both of these look like good flop folds.
im sure you are getting shown trips in both hands most of the time.

[RikaKazak]

On hand one, I push on flop, I mean he called 20% of his stack pf, I go with 99% of flop. He might have TT or JJ and think he's ck raising for value or some stupid idea like that. (basically I'm saying I disagree with the minimum ck raise being a set 90% of the time) On hand 2, I check the flop behind about 75-90% of the time. Reason being I want to play a small pot with 1 pair on a paired board. Plus checking sets up later when you check behind with AK, adn also might induce bluff, and u lose less when he does have a 9. Downside to that is yes you do give free cards that can cost pot, I used to bet that flop 100%, but now I like checking it, heads up in position.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
On hand one, I push on flop, I mean he called 20% of his stack pf, I go with 99% of flop. He might have TT or JJ and think he's ck raising for value or some stupid idea like that. (basically I'm saying I disagree with the minimum ck raise being a set 90% of the time) On hand 2, I check the flop behind about 75-90% of the time. Reason being I want to play a small pot with 1 pair on a paired board. Plus checking sets up later when you check behind with AK, adn also might induce bluff, and u lose less when he does have a 9. Downside to that is yes you do give free cards that can cost pot, I used to bet that flop 100%, but now I like checking it, heads up in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think checking behind on hand 2 is a very good idea.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
both of these look like good flop folds.
im sure you are getting shown trips in both hands most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you and will be doing that most of the time from now on in these situations, but I have posted hands liek this in the past and said that I folded and I was called weak tight by everyone.

I think the term "weak tight" was invented by loose players who hate to fold and cringe at the thought that they might fold the best hand

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]


if I called the cr if would be because I didn't think he had a 9 so I'd put him in on the turn every time. calling the flop cr and folding the turn is chip burning imo, he's going to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, turnip. i think often a min check raise is a smaller pair seeing where it is at. given ice is TAG, he will obv not call anything more without a good hand... but most people do not lay down QQ-AA on this kind of board if they raised preflop with no resistance... soooo many times a min check raise will shut down after being called if it is JJ or lower. i'd call flop and then fold to further aggression.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


if I called the cr if would be because I didn't think he had a 9 so I'd put him in on the turn every time. calling the flop cr and folding the turn is chip burning imo, he's going to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, turnip. i think often a min check raise is a smaller pair seeing where it is at. given ice is TAG, he will obv not call anything more without a good hand... but most people do not lay down QQ-AA on this kind of board if they raised preflop with no resistance... soooo many times a min check raise will shut down after being called if it is JJ or lower. i'd call flop and then fold to further aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how often does someone min check raise and then not pound the turn? I think if you call the check raise, theres going to bet a 2/3 pot bet coming almost every time. Even if theyre bluffing.

[mgsimpleton]

i was saying i have experienced it often where someone will min check raise and shut down... it isn't a bluff it's a feeler bet that would cost too much if it were bigger.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
i was saying i have experienced it often where someone will min check raise and shut down... it isn't a bluff it's a feeler bet that would cost too much if it were bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont most people lead out if they want to test the waters? I cant say that Ive seen a min check raise as a feeler very often.

[mgsimpleton]

if someone leads out on 994r and i was the preflop raiser, i'm often calling.

[Triumph36]

At 1/2 NL shorthanded I've been seeing min-check raises on draws. They can buy a free card. I've also been playing back at some of them with some success.

1. Just go all-in, you're not folding here. This could be two tens, A9, who knows.

2. Call and see what happens on the turn. Against a fish it's probably three nines but I don't think you can dump an overpair to it - if he leads the turn, get out.

[rwperu34]

You say min check raise like it's some variable in the players arsenal. I've found that 99.5% of the players that min raise ONLY min raise. There is very little variance. So treat a min raise like you would treat any raise. Figure out thier raising standard and play the hand accordingly.

Hand #1: I either push or call and get it in on the turn. There is no turning back in that hand.

Hand #2: With those awkward stacks I check behind looking to pick up some value on the turn and on the river. As the hand played...well those are some awkward stacks.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
if someone leads out on 994r and i was the preflop raiser, i'm often calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

So am I, but I'm planning to raise the turn.

I still think you did not make a mistake with that hand Iceman.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
soooo many times a min check raise will shut down after being called if it is JJ or lower. i'd call flop and then fold to further aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure what to say, this never ever happens to me. I can count on one hand the times someone has min cr me on flop and check folded the turn.

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
I can count on one hand the times someone has min cr me on flop and check folded the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

it seems to happen more often online, and almost never live....it is indeed weird....

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if someone leads out on 994r and i was the preflop raiser, i'm often calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

So am I, but I'm planning to raise the turn.



[/ QUOTE ]

well, yeah, lol. like with suited connectors or wahtever. what do you think, i raise with legitimate hands?

[cero_z]

Hi turnipmonster,

[ QUOTE ]
if I called the cr if would be because I didn't think he had a 9 so I'd put him in on the turn every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Allow me to play the Bruiser, here: if you don't think he has a 9, then there's not much point in raising him on the turn; he has 2 outs at best, and is way likelier to bet the river (continue his probable bluff) then to call a raise now.

[fisherman112]

if you extend min c/r'ing to a larger category of small c/r's, a lot of times you will see people do this with tp, middle pair or air, against players who continuation bet religiously, as a semi-bluff/value raise. of course this doesnt get shown down as much because it often produces a fold, but i'd say that the 90% number is too high.

[GimmeDaWatch]

[ QUOTE ]
You say min check raise like it's some variable in the players arsenal. I've found that 99.5% of the players that min raise ONLY min raise.



I think this is a vast exaggeration. Ive seen plenty of players who occasionally min-raise but usually raise more.

[wtfsvi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
At lower stakes, I would lean towards folding right now because its going to cost me my whole stack to find out if he has a 9 or 44. I just dont see people min check raising in a raised pot like that with 88 or something like that.

[/ QUOTE ] I can tell you that in the NL$100 and $200, there is some serious check min-raising going on with TPanyK/bluffs/semibluffs/monsters/underpairs/overpairs these days. 6max that is. They aren't monsters close to half the time.

Might be different full ring though.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Hand 1: Just put him in. If you put him in every time you'll end up making money. If you start trying to pick your spots to fold, you can start losing money here. Wait until you have a read and deeper stacks to start folding these.

Hand 2: Check the flop and it's not close.

[turnipmonster]

good point

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
I will admit though that I do check raise a preflop raiser sometimes with any pocket pair, but I dont min check raise. Why? Because they wont fold. Thats why people continue to make that min check raise. Because they know you wont fold an overpair and they can suck you in. In seems too obvious to work, but it still does.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I will very occasionally check/minraise a villian if I know that he's a tight and thinking player. And of course, if I have the unbeatable nuts against a bad player or players who possibly have 2nd pair or a backdoor flush draw (or some such dreck), I'll do it just to build a pot.

Because I do this, I'm always aware that a good player could be doing it to me as I'm about a 24/14 in my 6 handed game. So I suppose, as with everything, your call should be somewhat player dependent.

gl

Marlow

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi turnipmonster,

[ QUOTE ]
if I called the cr if would be because I didn't think he had a 9 so I'd put him in on the turn every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Allow me to play the Bruiser, here: if you don't think he has a 9, then there's not much point in raising him on the turn; he has 2 outs at best, and is way likelier to bet the river (continue his probable bluff) then to call a raise now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Three barrels with air, against a pfr that's showing stamina, is rare in my experience. He's only putting money in on the river with a hand that's caught its miracle or that would have paid you on the turn (smaller pp).