Hand to Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

Here's a seemingly simple hand I played earlier tonight in the $30-$60 game at The Bellagio. By the way, the place is packed and there are many good games at all limits. I suspect it will stay that way for at least six weeks.

Two early position players limped and then a middle position player, who is a little too loose and very aggressive, raised. I held A/forums/images/icons/heart.gifQ/forums/images/icons/heart.gif on the button and made it three bets.

The flop was K/forums/images/icons/heart.gif4/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. It was checked, I bet, and everyone folded.

All comments welcome,

Best wishes,
Mason

[Ed Miller]

By the way, the place is packed and there are many good games at all limits. I suspect it will stay that way for at least six weeks.

Fantastic news. I'll be there starting next Tuesday to see how I do. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Having three opponents fold to one flop bet in a pot that was 3-bet preflop is basically unheard of in my game. I find the flop action to be very surprising.

[MrHeadsUp]

[FishyWhale]

Given the fact that you said the games are good (and that the limpers apparently cold-called your 3-bet), the limpers are probably a little on the loose side, so when the flop comes K43 with one heart, you could also check behind and see if a heart/ace/queen comes down on turn and be done with the hand/try to bluff-bet otherwise, because it´s not too likely that everyone will fold to your flop bet; a check-raise would hurt especially.

[Lunamondo]

There is so much money in the pot that it doesn't hurt to bet (with this flop), even if out of position (though not vs. three cold callers for sure); and with a position it will give a free river card in many/most cases even if you get called.

[Kevin J]

Your hand is not strong enough to slow play. Betting is correct. IMO-

[Kevin J]

AQ figures to be the best hand on this flop given the situation Mason describes. If not, he most certainly has 6 outs. Betting is mandatory. IMO-

[leon]

I'm with kong on this one. I can't believe it gets three bet preflop and then everyone mucks for one bet. This would never happen in my game. Which basically confirms your statement that this was a great game. Opponents who limp/cold call two more, and a loose aggressive who is willing to muck to one bet on the flop- mmmm.

Leon

[Ginogino]

Mason:
Your three-bet pre-flop works on a number of levels. Because you have AQs, you are happy if the early limpers fold, adding equity to what is likely a better hand than the aggressive raiser's (and you have position). If on the other hand the limpers call, you have a hand which plays well multi-way.

When the flop comes and your opponents check to you, your lead bet from the button again works on a number of levels. First, it's likely that you'll fold someone (though I suspect that folding everyone was a small surprise). The most common hand for calling a flop that misses you is "two overcards" -- and the K on the flop guarantees that none of your opponents will hold that. Because the pre-flop raiser did not re-raise you, I think you can be reasonably sure that he doesn't hold AA, KK, or AK. This makes him unlikely to be trying for a checkraise on this flop, so it looks like you'll get to see the turn for the single bet even if he holds Kx (and the substantial majority of the hands he'd probably raise with pre-flop have Aces more often than Kings). If he has made a pair of K's,you have outs (backdoor flush and straight possibilities plus an Ace overcard). Given the two low cards flopped it's improbable that anything but the King could have helped anyone (no flush draws and only the remote low straight draw).

Assuming nobody holds a King, your betting on each round gives your opponents the job of picking between bad choices, and if someone has a King, you've still got chances.

Gino

[Rick Nebiolo]

Mason,

gee, a hand where you didn't check call your opponents to death /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

with AQs or offsuit on the button pre flop you want to three bet most right hand opponents who raise limpers late since they tend to have a much worse hand than you. with this slightly loose and very aggressive raiser your hand is even better given his likely low raising standards. this isn't a place to keep the pot small and leverage a raise off his likely post flop bet.

andy fox would disagree but with a big ace suited but possibly dominated hand had the pre flop raise come early with a few cold callers calling two bets is OK but still i would usually reraise.

with this flop (a king high rainbow with two babies) your hand is probably best after being checked to but not so good you want to give free cards. you can't check and allow low limping cards a chance to pair up because the pot has gotton big enough for them to call you down on fourth street and the river. you also want a small or middle pair who may have been thinking about calling you down or leading in on the turn a chance to fold. i would think the bet is automatic.

~ rick

[mikelow]

What's there to talk about? I mean, you can't allow a free card, can you?

Mason needs to post hands where decisions really have to be made.

[elysium]

hi mason
it seems like a lot of the better players stand pretty tough with AQs when Kxx with back-door flops. i'm sure you wouldn't give the back-door straight and flush draws that much consideration unless they were to the nuts. i would like to know though if you would call or raise if it was 1 bet to you on the flop, and how much the back-door potential influences the decision. this is a very complex area of hold em, but often i see the better players calling or raising when bet into in this situation.

[andyfox]

Andy Fox probably would disagree. He does see the differencd, though, between Mason's situation and the one you describe. However: "The flop was K43. It was checked. . ." This happens more often when one 3-bets and I think it's of tremendous value.

[TobDog]

I think it was played well, I don't get to critique Mason's hands all that often, but you 3 bet, I am assuming you had 3 opponents?(both blinds folded) K, rag, rag, rainbow, perfect for everyone to miss the flop, you fired with what was probably the best hand, not allowing any free cards that might beat you, and picked up some lunch money. If they call you, many turn cards make you a big draw or big pair.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mr. Heads Up:

It's even better than you point out since I also have three to a royal flush.

Also, are you the same Mr. Heads Up that use to post on RGP?

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Whale:

You wrote:

because it´s not too likely that everyone will fold to your flop bet

While this statement is true, because of the size of the pot they only have to all fold occasionally for the bet to be profitable. In addition, it can be beneficial if only one or two of them fold.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Lunamondo:

You wrote:

it will give a free river card in many/most cases even if you get called.

But suppose you get one caller. Wouldn't you want to bet again if a blank hits?

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Leon:

There's a little more here than I indicated. The loose aggressive does have playing skills from the flop on. Furthermore, he is someone who I have played a fair amount with. Thus I knew going in that he could lay doen hands against me on the flop or turn.

Best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Gino:

You wrote:

Your three-bet pre-flop works on a number of levels. Because you have AQs, you are happy if the early limpers fold, adding equity to what is likely a better hand than the aggressive raiser's (and you have position). If on the other hand the limpers call, you have a hand which plays well multi-way.

You're exactly right. If my hand wasn't suited, it might be better off as a fold.

The rest of your analysis is also correct.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Elysium:

I see this on our forums and in the literature a fair amount, and it is very wrong. Draws do not need to be to the nuts in hold 'em. Of course, if they are to the nuts it makes them a better, but that's usually because if you now make a pair your chances of winning have gone up.

Fear of making a flush in these spots and losing to a bigger flush is not justified. So if I would have made it three bets with J/forums/images/icons/heart.gifT/forums/images/icons/heart.gif for instance, the three flush on the flop would have the same impact on my thinking as the current one does. However, not having the ace overcard hurts.

Best wishes,
Mason

[andyfox]

Maybe in an unraised pot, but there was a raise in front of Mason in this one.

[andyfox]

I see this relatively often in the 30-60 games at Commerce. Somewhat paradoxically, they will lay down more often when the pot is 3-bet pre-flop than when it is only 2-bet. The folders reason that the 3-bettor must have a monster of at worst A-K so why chase?

[Lunamondo]

A REASON TO BET. If one can often enough make a better (77, A4s - K42) or equal (AQ) hand to fold on the turn, then betting is better. If he might fold, and if he might have such a hand (he is not that aggressive that he would have bet or check-raised the flop, or bet the turn). If he has some slick hand other than AQ (e.g. AJ), one can bet its outs out.

A REASON TO CHECK. This is profitable if he won't fold a pair on the turn. Then he might not or probably won't regularly bet the river for value with his pocket pair in this situation; fearing a higher pocket underpair, and seeing no value from the AQ call. And if he has made a loose flop call with some slick hand other than AQ, he might bluff the river and get called by AQ.

A BLANK. The ace is dangerous here, making the opponent a possible two pair, or a worse pair of aces if he took a loose flop call. To check the turn when e.g. a Jack turns? If the opponent had plans of calling up to river (with any pair), the Jack would perhaps make no difference, but might have paired his loose (AJ) flop call. (A baby card might make AXs a straight, and e.g. a medium card might have made him a set.)

[Sehr Gut]

Hi Mason.

I think the flop bet is absolutely mandatory when its checked to you but i wonder what you would have done if one of the limpers had checkraised you?

/Sehr Gut

[Lee Jones]

Mason - I like the 3-bet and the bet on the flop for the same reasons that everybody else did.

Here's the big question: what do you do when you get a caller or two? Assuming your caller(s) is/are not completely hopeless, they've got a king or (e.g.) 88. And they're getting ready to call you down, on the theory that you've got AQ.

Where do you go from here? I mean, sure, if the T /forums/images/icons/heart.gif tumbles on the turn, great, fire #2. But what if it's the 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ?

Thanks, Lee

[skp]

Against one opponent, you would fire again with Ak and then usually check the river. There are certain opponents that I play against who know that I would do this and therefore call on the turn with their 88 or whatever just to see if I will fire again on the river (meaning King or better) or simply decide to show it down (meaning usually AQ or perhpas QQ/JJ). Against them, I would bluff on the river with Ak and value bet if I catch an Ace or Queen. Sounds conradictory but that's the way I would play it.

If all three opponents called the flop bet, I think you have an obvious check on the turn.

With 2 opponents, I would rely on game feel to guide my actions but it's easy to see how in a bloated pot like this, one guy might call with AJ and the other calls with 88. A turn bet could get 88 out particularly if AJ calls your turn bet before 88 acts. In this scenario against two flop callers, I would probably check the river if I don't improve.

[skp]

Betting is perhaps easier when it's the 7s as opposed to the ten of hearts. With the 7s, you bet and fold if checkraised. With the Th, you have to call making your bet less appealing retrospectively.

This might be a spot where the principle "check with outs, bet without outs" applies but again, that also has to be considered in the context of the bloated pot.

[FishyWhale]

In addition, it can be beneficial if only one or two of them fold.

It what way can that be beneficial when you have only the best non-pair hand??? So that they will pay you off if you make something? The same would happen if you check behind and hit something.

And checking would be good if you occasionally check your better hands, allows you to steal the pot on turn in these spots when they check again (as you will surely know).

[Lee Jones]

(include the standard geographic differences disclaimer)

I've found that in my games, there is a type of opponent that simply puts you on nut-no pair, and calls you all the way out. It has nothing to do particularly with how I play as much as it has to do with how he plays.

So, Mason's problem isn't very interesting to me. If you bet and they all fold the flop, excellent - order a fruit plate. But I've blown off too many big bets trying to tell 88 that his pair wasn't good when the flop is K-high.

Of course, that makes value-betting AK all the more joyful. But I'm becoming more inclined to give up the AQ on the turn (check the turn, pray for a miracle, mostly fold on the river).

I guess I just want to balance the "Keep firing on the turn" view.

Regards, Lee

[randoGGy]

this is an example of how the correct play could vary according to the table image of the player. i believe my usual table image is different than yours. i usually am viewed as over-aggressive, albeit tight in my starting hand requirements

nevertheless, in my regular game, i will usually make this same flop bet as you. as you say, it only has to work once in a while to be profitable.

but many of my poker buddies have seen me make these 'profitable' bets, and i usually will get at least one caller. if he is one of the many who always call me down, i will take the free card on the turn. i think it is a judgement call, based on being aware of your image in the eyes of your adversary.

occasionally i will vary my play on the flop in this situation: i check. with my usual hyper-aggressive image, anytime i check after i three-bet preflop with a K or A on the board, my buddies get suspicious. if a blank hits, often they will check it to me again, which i then bet and often win. or if one of the others bet, i can often win it with a simple raise.