KQs in the BB

[Pylos]

SB is 64% VP$IP, 8%PFR, kind of a dummy and has been showing down some very strange hands. He loves to c/r and has re-raised me on a 10 high a few hands prior.

Usually, I take the approach to this hand much diffrently. I would have re-raised the flop to get rid of the player ahead of me, but for some reason I feared QQ-AA or the diamond draw (I have been running like absolute **** these days).

Was that weak on my part, considering that I knew SB would re-raise no matter what? Was it worth trying to get a "free card" even if I let the 3rd player also stay in the hand (assuming he might have folded to 2 bets, which you never know at this limit)?

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 checks, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (17.00 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds.

Turn: (10.00 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (12.00 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.00 BB.

[bozlax]

Raise this flop for value. You want flush draws paying you off, here. Also, you want to bleed as much out of this nutbag as you can with top pair-great kicker.

[irishpint]

raise the flop, call down if 3bet. your flop raise is going to hopefully fold out a A behind you, fold out someone w/ middle or bottom pair, make someone with a diamond draw pay more.

[imported_The Vibesman]

I think you really need to raise and try to get this heads up. Why would you fear AA-QQ from a player that didn't get any raises in pre plop? If you are afraid he's got the diamond draw, you know you have to charge him at least two bets on each street to draw to it. The whole thing is this: "but for some reason I feared QQ-AA or the diamond draw (I have been running like absolute **** these days).
" That's weak thinking, when at this point you have absolutely no reason to think that.

Pre flop: I think this is fine. You want to get others out behind you, even though it doesn't work you have to call the capped pot.

Flop: Like what you said, I would normally raise this. You aren't worried about MP3 as he checked his posted big blind the first time around.

If you get 3-bet in this position, would it be ok to call-call-call through the river, assuming no ace falls?

Turn and River: I play it the same way. From his stats and history, he is just as easy doing this with A-x as he is with KK or QQ.

[Pylos]

[ QUOTE ]
That's weak thinking, when at this point you have absolutely no reason to think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

He capped pre-flop, minus my read, I think I just got a little sqweemish like the donkey I am.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's weak thinking, when at this point you have absolutely no reason to think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

He capped pre-flop, minus my read, I think I just got a little sqweemish like the donkey I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, reading your original post, I got the impression you were afraid of AA-QQ/diamonds from the player after you, not SB.

You did say SB was crazy, re-raising w/ T high, so I still don't know why you'd give him credit for a hand. Don't let it get you down, sometimes we all freeze up.

But you really need to raise this flop. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[666shooter]

PF: Nothing wrong here, if SB is the nut you say he is.

Post-Flop: Raise, you probably have the best hand. Is this one of those types that will 3-bet/cap with crap? If this is true and it is 3-bet to me, I cap and I raise him on the turn if he bets again.

[Sykes]

I would never 3 bet this preflop.

And the people that are saying to raise the flop are nuts.
You want hands like AK/JJ to keep bluffing on this board. If you raise and get 3 bet, you're behind KK/QQ/AA/AQs. This is a perfect WA/WB line.

Although, if I didn't 3 bet this pre-flop, I would raise the flop. Given the preflop action, calling down is perfectly fine.

[grjr]

I agree with Sykes. I just call preflop and then raise the flop if we hit something. I don't like 3 betting KQs preflop--especially if we're not folding anyone. It's not that great of a hand to be putting in a lot of bets preflop against only 3 or 4 opponents.

[666shooter]

I disagree. Nobody indicated a premium hand pre-flop so I don't see a problem with the 3-bet against SB who will raise with anything.

Raising the flop isn't nuts, we don't think anyone has the hands you listed.

Wouldn't we want to re raise this pre flop to attempt to isolate against the SB, or at least limit the 2 bet callers that we know we will get at this limit? At this point, you cant just put him on a high pocket pair because he raised.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never 3 bet this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP provided a read that the SB is a maniac, re-raising with 10 high, raising with all sorts of lousy hands, and showing down all sorts of strangeness; I see no problem with a preflop threebet in position against this type of opponent as an isolation attempt.

[ QUOTE ]

And the people that are saying to raise the flop are nuts.
You want hands like AK/JJ to keep bluffing on this board. If you raise and get 3 bet, you're behind KK/QQ/AA/AQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or T high, or a pair of 3's, or any number of unlikely holdings, given OP's read of the villian. This is why reads are important. I am concerned about this other guy, which is why I think we need to raise and put the heat on him, try to get him out of there, or at least define his hand. At this point I'm not the least bit worried about what SB might have. He may just love raising, we've all seen it before.

*edit: on the flop, there are two left to act behind us, all the more reason to raise IMO.

[Pylos]

It's incorrect to put him on a high pocket pair? The guy capped the flop, and he has been 7% PFR, even though he has been a whopping 64%VP$IP. That means that he isn't raising much, although he has been entering many pots.

It seemed to me like the only situation where this guy would start capping. I 3-bet originally because I was hoping that he was doing his usual stupid routine, but then when I rehashed my ideas about him on the flop I realized that his PFR% was in fact quite low and he played preflop less agressive than after the flop, where he turned into a crazyman.

And your right Sykes, if I didn't 3-bet the flop, and he didn't cap, I would have raised the flop.

That is the exact reason why I had a problem with this hand, becuase I was unsure whether or not to continue my aggression, even with TOP PAIR on the flop and all the way to the river. There was no way homeboy was going to be capping with a 5 in his hand, AQs was a low possibility as well in my mind, so I thought I might have a shot, but if I did it was against a high pocket pair so mabye just call it down to see if I improve and continue aggression when that happens.

[Bradyams]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never 3 bet this preflop.

And the people that are saying to raise the flop are nuts.
You want hands like AK/JJ to keep bluffing on this board. If you raise and get 3 bet, you're behind KK/QQ/AA/AQs. This is a perfect WA/WB line.

Although, if I didn't 3 bet this pre-flop, I would raise the flop. Given the preflop action, calling down is perfectly fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the preflop 3bet. You have position on the SB, and you are building a large pot with a strong hand.

Letting a worse hand here bluff at you may be correct sometimes, but not against a maniac. He probably won't go anywhere if you raise the flop. You also want to charge the remaining players as much as you can to draw out on you.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't we want to re raise this pre flop to attempt to isolate against the SB, or at least limit the 2 bet callers that we know we will get at this limit? At this point, you cant just put him on a high pocket pair because he raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think those limpers are going to fold for 2 bets at Party .50/1? I see it occasionally but it's pretty rare. I'd rather save the money until we see if we have a hand since with only 3 other players we don't have the bet odds preflop to play for a flopped flush or straight draw.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would never 3 bet this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP provided a read that the SB is a maniac, re-raising with 10 high, raising with all sorts of lousy hands, and showing down all sorts of strangeness; I see no problem with a preflop threebet in position against this type of opponent as an isolation attempt.



[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here is that the OP didn't specify whether this is true in situations where the Villain pre-flop raised. When he raises, we're now going against his PFR range of hands, not his normal VPIP range of hands.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would never 3 bet this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP provided a read that the SB is a maniac, re-raising with 10 high, raising with all sorts of lousy hands, and showing down all sorts of strangeness; I see no problem with a preflop threebet in position against this type of opponent as an isolation attempt.



[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here is that the OP didn't specify whether this is true in situations where the Villain pre-flop raised. When he raises, we're now going against his PFR range of hands, not his normal VPIP range of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. My problem here is I don't know what these #'s mean, I don't have pokertracker, so I can only pay attention to what you write out in terms of reads. It's why I don't respond to many posts that only have reads listed as three #'s. (Villian is 54/7/3. I don't know what that means.)

My bad, I need to learn the language.

[aces_dad]

The main three are VPIP / PFR / AF - Voluntarily Put money Into Pot / Pre-Flop Raise / Agression Factor. Usually AF is mentioned as Post-Flop agression factor since Preflop is covered by PFR.

So a 65VPIP with 8PFR is actually a very loose, passive player preflop. With only an 8% PFR, we can no longer assume any 2 cards pf, and should start to think he's got better than average holdings. This doesn't always mean large PP's though, which is where a read on his pre-flop capping standards would help.

Also check out the FAQ for more discussion of the x/y/z numbers and what 'normal' TAG numbers are.

point taken. so anyway, you have now put him on a preflop range of AA-10's, A-K, maybe A-Qs? So more often than not you are going to lose this hand after this flop. So calling down isn't the best option. My second play would be to raise the flop, if you are 3 bet you assume you are beat and fold.

(With a pf raise % of ~8, is it unreasonable to put him on a hand like A-Js or A-10s? or even 99?)

I still like the PF play. If anything, you are involved in a big pot that if you hit will pay you very well.

[imported_The Vibesman]

Thank you sir, I glossed over that section of the FAQ and forgot about it. I'll keep those #s in mind when reading these from now on.

[Pylos]

[ QUOTE ]
So calling down isn't the best option.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's unreasonable to call down a pot for 2BB when it is already 10BB? Thats 5-1 odds, considering I have top pair, is it completely rediculous to call this down in a big pot?

[eviljeff]

he's a LAG, so I'd pop him on the flop and again on the turn or river. calling atw can't be right.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So calling down isn't the best option.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's unreasonable to call down a pot for 2BB when it is already 10BB? Thats 5-1 odds, considering I have top pair, is it completely rediculous to call this down in a big pot?

[/ QUOTE ]


Let me try to clarify....I stick with what I said in my first post. I think if you raise this on the flop the hand plays out differently. I think you will see real quick whether you have an advantage or not. If he is playing AK, 10's, or J's, he will/should be scared and might fold or at least check to you on the turn. If he has you dominated with AA-QQ or AQ, then you will probably see a 3 bet. Given that you did not raise the flop, I would not raise the turn or river and just call down.

As we have played out this hand, it seems that you have now decided he most likely had you beat, but just couldn't get away from it completely, so you saw it as cheap as possible. if you are right and the only hands he could be playing like this are high pocket pairs or maybe AK or AQ, then it is more likely than not you are beat. I personally would not fold this, it just seems that this is where your thought process went...

[Pylos]

RESULTS: Homeboy held AA for the win.