When would you consider folding this?

[JRF2k]

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (5.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.70 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.70 BB

[Bradyams]

Raise preflop, and 3bet the flop. If you did that the hand would play much differently.

I'm not folding anywhere. If I'm behind here I plan on losing quite a bit.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop, and 3bet the flop. If you did that the hand would play much differently.

I'm not folding anywhere. If I'm behind here I plan on losing quite a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts exactly.

[davelin]

Raise pre-flop. Freakin' never.

[JRF2k]

[ QUOTE ]

If I'm behind here I plan on losing quite a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disappointingly, I was behind. I just couldn't lay three Kings down. Not on a board like that, anyway.

[irishpint]

raise pf, like everyone has said. and i wouldn't ever fold this ever.

[Sykes]

Raise preflop.

And yes I could fold this. MP2 either has JJ/99/KJ. I would put it on JJ.

[666shooter]

I tend to raise this pre-flop.

I would have 3-bet the flop. No chance in hell I'm folding this.

[JRF2k]

So I should always be raising KQs early like that? Since I am kind of new I am using a starting hands chart out of a book and it says to just call early with KQs and fold if it has been raised. Is calling -EV here? Or, wait, I was first in, so I should be raising first in, right?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
So I should always be raising KQs early like that?

[/ QUOTE ] Depending on the table this is usually the right play. [ QUOTE ]
Since I am kind of new I am using a starting hands chart out of a book and it says to just call early with KQs and fold if it has been raised.

[/ QUOTE ]What book? Don't fold to one bet PF with this hand.

[WSOP Bound]

[ QUOTE ]
So I should always be raising KQs early like that? Since I am kind of new I am using a starting hands chart out of a book and it says to just call early with KQs and fold if it has been raised. Is calling -EV here? Or, wait, I was first in, so I should be raising first in, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I struggled with this for a long time because KQs just never seemed worth a raise to me PF. I've gotten better at raising it in EP/MP, but I am often still often uncomfortable with it. My thinking is that the idea behind the raise is that when you are playing it for high card value (which ends up being a majority of the flops) the hand plays best against as few opponents as possible.

[imported_The Vibesman]

With a top pair hand like this, yes, I think raising first in is better than calling. A hand like this, you can win by catching just one card a lot of the time against a smaller field. Open-limping is generally only good for hands like small pocket pairs or small suited connectors on loose-passive tables where you can almost count on getting a good amount of limpers after you and hardly anyone ever raises.

There are those that post here who believe if you never open-limped, that would be fantastic.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking is that the idea behind the raise is that when you are playing it for high card value (which ends up being a majority of the flops) the hand plays best against as few opponents as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I raise.

[Bradyams]

[ QUOTE ]
So I should always be raising KQs early like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about the hands that your opponents generally limp in with or call two bets cold pre-flop with. It's not uncommon to see hands like A5o, T8o, 95s, and any trash like that. If you know these players will call your raises with hands that are inferior to yours then by raising you make money (raise for value). Therefore it is pretty much always correct to raise KQs pre-flop, and some worse hands (KQo, &amp; AJo for example).

[Bradyams]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My thinking is that the idea behind the raise is that when you are playing it for high card value (which ends up being a majority of the flops) the hand plays best against as few opponents as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't raise to thin the field. You raise for value cause you will often be called with worse hands. If I raise KQs UTG, I wouldn't be complaining if every player on the table called my raise.

[JRF2k]

[ QUOTE ]
What book?

[/ QUOTE ]

Internet Texas Holdem by Matthew Hilger

[Runin]

I think you need to raise PF. This is going to help you later in this hand with narrowing down your opponents hand. Not sure why you didn't 3-bet the flop. Again, I'm betting out on the turn after I 3-bet the flop. This is all coming back to the PF raise for me to help identify villian's possible hands. I'm not sure I'm folding this unless villian caps every street, even then it would depend on my read of him and what hands I could put him on.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What book?

[/ QUOTE ]

Internet Texas Holdem by Matthew Hilger

[/ QUOTE ]stop reading that immediately.

[aces_dad]

I have never read that book. Period.

And I'm waving my finger at Rafi I say this.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I should always be raising KQs early like that?

[/ QUOTE ] Depending on the table this is usually the right play. [ QUOTE ]
Since I am kind of new I am using a starting hands chart out of a book and it says to just call early with KQs and fold if it has been raised.

[/ QUOTE ]What book? Don't fold to one bet PF with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think he's saying if it was raised before you, fold for 2 cold. I'm positive hilger doesn't mean fold when it comes back 1 bet to you.

I have read parts of the book and it has provided me with a lot of insight. It is a good book.

[xenthebrain]

I'd raise it preflop.

I like calling the flop and betting the turn (so stop and go), rather than c/r the turn.

If he has a worse hand he might fold to a direct 3-bet since there aren't alot of draws he could have here.

I don't consider folding an option.

[xenthebrain]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop.

And yes I could fold this. MP2 either has JJ/99/KJ. I would put it on JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, of course. When you read that he lost this hand he could have either that or AK, but if you didn't know that why would you rule out TT,QQ,AA and Kx (after all, we don't have a read on him)

[WSOP Bound]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I should always be raising KQs early like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about the hands that your opponents generally limp in with or call two bets cold pre-flop with. It's not uncommon to see hands like A5o, T8o, 95s, and any trash like that. If you know these players will call your raises with hands that are inferior to yours then by raising you make money (raise for value). Therefore it is pretty much always correct to raise KQs pre-flop, and some worse hands (KQo, &amp; AJo for example).

[/ QUOTE ]

With the exception of A5o which KQs is actually an underdog to I would be fine with any of the other hands that you listed calling. When we raise PF with KQs there is some value in it as you pointed out. But it seems to me that any bet/raise that we make logically should have value. The question becomes wether or not value is the primary cause for betting, and I'm not 100% sure which one is more important here. There is only value in having them in the hand IF we hit and they don't.

[bjarne]

I would never fold this (and raise preflop).
Firstly because its not certain that you are behind.

Even if you are behind as MP1 indicates with the 3-bet, say MP1 has AK or 99 (KJ or JJ is sort of worse but the way the betting went there is no reason to believe that the J helped MP1), you still have plenty of outs to win or split pot. You could also be up against another KQ.

After the 3-bet on the turn the pot is laying you almost 10:1. Compare this to the odds that you are ahead (or tied agains another KQ) together with the odds that you can draw out makes this impossible to fold IMO.

[kross]

[ QUOTE ]
With the exception of A5o which KQs is actually an underdog to I would be fine with any of the other hands that you listed calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQs is only an underdog to A5o heads up. In a multiway pot, KQs has tons more equity than A5o, so you want A5o to call you.

2,991,984 games 38.005 secs 78,726 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 28.2478 % 27.55% 00.70% { KQs }
Hand 2: 18.0938 % 16.63% 01.46% { A5o }
Hand 3: 13.4253 % 12.38% 01.05% { random }
Hand 4: 13.4066 % 12.35% 01.05% { random }
Hand 5: 13.4336 % 12.39% 01.04% { random }
Hand 6: 13.3929 % 12.35% 01.04% { random }