KcTc - pump the big draw?

[Ulysses]

Pretty loose and wild 15-30 game.

3 limpers to me on the button w/ K /forums/images/icons/club.gif T /forums/images/icons/club.gif

I raise. Blinds and limpers call.

Flop Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Checked to me. I bet. SB folds. BB check-raises. One good player (only opponent I consider good) thinks a long time and finally cold-calls. One other cold-caller. Back to me. I consider three-betting, but I suspect the BB will four-bet and at that point I think we're likely to lose the two cold-callers. I call. I'd say I'm 75% sure BB will 4-bet, 90% sure we'll lose one caller, 25-50% sure we'll lose both of them.

Turn 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif (Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif)

BB bets. Strong player calls all-in. I hadn't noticed his short stack previously. Next player folds. I call.

River J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif (8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif)

BB bets. I raise. He calls.

So, only 1 question here. Should I have 3-bet the flop?

[Ginogino]

Ulysses:
When you think about re-raising on the flop, there are just under 7 big bets in the pot. I think that makes it big enough that eliminating one or two opponents is worthwhile, if that's what happens. If they want to stay in, that's all right, too. (I disregard the big blind's being close to all in, because you didn't take it into consideration, though as I'm sure you know, it's an important element in your strategic picture, and had you noticed you'd have made it part of your thinking.) Why not charge the max for whatever draws your opponents were playing?

I defer to your judgment about what would have happened if you raised. In my experience, though, you can't be so sure you'd lose the average player here.

Gino

[MHoydilla]

If there are 3 limpers, one who you consider a good player, why did you raise preflop?

[Ulysses]

I think that makes it big enough that eliminating one or two opponents is worthwhile, if that's what happens.

Good point. I felt like I needed to make my hand, but there's a good chance hitting a King would have been good enough to beat BB - which I'd prefer to find out heads-up w/ this board. As you say, I don't mind if they stay in, but if they fold it's not so bad either. Put that way, I like 3-betting here.

I defer to your judgment about what would have happened if you raised. In my experience, though, you can't be so sure you'd lose the average player here.

What, you've played this game before? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif I agree with you, and skewed the numbers a little high for discussion purposes. They were pretty much what I was thinking at the time, though. After the fact, however, I thought to myself - that's ridiculous - who folds in a game like this after calling two bets cold?

[Ulysses]

If there are 3 limpers, one who you consider a good player, why did you raise preflop?

Honestly, I don't have a real good answer, or much of any answer for that matter. My default action with a few limpers is to raise on the button w/ two suited broadway cards. Even more mediocre stuff like JTs, QTs? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I don't mind if the blinds fold, nor do I mind if they stick around. Most times I'm going to have to make a decent hand to take down the pot, and I like my chances with these cards. And I think they are fairly easy to play well post-flop.

What are the reasons you wouldn't raise? And given that you wouldn't in this case, under what conditions would you raise KTs on the button?

[MHoydilla]

I wouldn't raise in this position because it would be to easy for you to be dominated both ways. Such as if anyone was holding KJ,KQ,A10 all of which I would consider a limping hand in EP, or MP if others had limped. I would think that the raise only has draw value as in a straight or a flush, and if there were a case where the nut flush AcXc was out your hands value diminishes greatly. I would only raise on the button with this hand againest 1, or 2 limpers only when I believe that the limpers are weak and I can out play them when we both miss the flop.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
here you can call. the thinking here is that you have an all in. you can't like your flush draw a whole lot and in the event he has trips, you can't like that situation a whole lot either. with these all ins, you need to reduce your odds a little, and while you may be squeeking by, there is little + ev. now, if you had another player or two in, you could raise for value. the all-in hurts you here too. so, a call is o.k.; now if you had the nut flush, a reraise is more doable because of the implied odds provided the board doesn't pair. there's a big difference between the nut flush and second best in these borderline situations. i think the more you look at it, the more you'll see that just calling is best here. you do have a lot of outs though.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
somehow i thought there was no question but that you should reraise the flop. i'm looking at the turn call. a very strong case at first sight can be made for raising the turn. what you didn't, o.k....i see now. yea, ulysses , you must cap the flop here in this game. you're well in the lead here. no question, get in as many bets on the flop as you can. on the turn, i like the call.

[astroglide]

i wouldn't raise preflop

[Tyler Durden]

Same here. It's a drawing hand, you don't want to give the blinds incentive to get out.

[Ulysses]

Dammit. Come on, someone's gotta like raising here? Tommy? mike l? mikelow? I mean, come on, KTs on the button? Button! Control! Power! Aggression! Where's the Killer Poker guy when I need him?

Seriously, do you think it's much of a mistake or just one of those take-it-or-leave-it decisions?

[Ulysses]

you can't like your flush draw a whole lot and in the event he has trips, you can't like that situation a whole lot either.

Well, I actually liked my flush draw a whole lot, but that shows how much I know! And yes, in the event he had trips, I definitely wouldn't like the situation a whole lot - especially if I didn't like my flush draw!

you do have a lot of outs though.

Wait a second. If I don't like my flush draw and the other guy has trips, I think I'm just praying for my four jacks! That doesn't seem like a lot of outs!!!!!!!!

[elysium]

hi all
you have to realize that this board may get very scary on the turn. you want to get in all the bets you can right now. if he completes the draw on the turn, he may not get called by as many as did call when the turn missed. he has an unconcealed holding. he must get in all the bets he can on the flop.

[J_V]

I like raising.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Ulysses:

I often three bet in these spots. These are good hands to gamble with and and if a blank comes your reraise might get you a free card.

However, you need to think about, and you obviously are, how the other players will react to your reraise. If they are likely to react as you describe, then be less inclined to reraise.

By the way, if the first player does make it four bets, it becomes less likely that you will win by catching a king.

Best wishes,
Mason

[cpk]

In these games I like being as subtle as a brick. I like your preflop raise just fine. Those critical of that need to go listen to Mike Caro's thing on the "myth of domination."

And I would probably 3-bet on the flop, yes.

[Inthacup]

I like the preflop raise.

[Lee Jones]

I guess I'd three-bet almost every time there. It wouldn't even occur to me that the two cold-callers might dump for two more. In fact, if you were even that sure you'd lose them, you could get a big overlay in a side-bet with me (I would have definitely given you 2:1 against).

I hadn't even thought about protecting other outs, but that's a good point - if your three-bet makes a king good, excellent.

But heck, you've probably got at least 12 outs. Even if you only keep one of the cold callers, that's +EV. Jam it up.

Finally, Mason's makes a good point that if you get 4-bet it tells you a king probably isn't good. Then the question is: "Can you lay it down if the river is a king and he bets?"

Regards, Lee
"I doubt I could"

[anatta]

I don't understand why you are so sure BB will 4 bet. Typically a player has a pair here, not necessarily top pair. When the limpers cold-called his raise, he probably was as unhappy as you were happy. Now you, the pre-flop raiser 3 bets...most BBs won't 4 bet here. (and if he does, Mason is right, your King is likely no good). I would 3 bet here no problem.

Pre-flop, with 3 limpers I would call at least 75% of the time. I prefer to bully one or two tighties, but with 3 I am inclined to see the flop cheaply. Simply put, top pair with a king is not that great here.