Who here would volunteer

[mackthefork]

to have one of their children disembowelled to save 6 people who need organ donations. Anyone who says they wouldn't, can you please stop applying math to situations involving human life.

Mack

[BZ_Zorro]

Amen.

I don't get what you're saying

Is this a logical argument or a request?

[mackthefork]

Both.

Mack

[ QUOTE ]
Both.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

So your argument is:

Sometimes you are incapable of applying math/logic to a situation, therefore, you never should

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
So your argument is:

Sometimes you are incapable of applying math/logic to a situation, therefore, you never should

[/ QUOTE ]

No my arguement is:

To the people who's opinion matters it is impossible to put a value on a human life. So a life is worth an infinite amount, therefore 1 life is = to 6 lives, in a manner of speaking.

Mack

[PLOlover]

So what does that say about US military doctors after world war 2 who gave pregnant women plutonium, just to see what would happen?

[bobman0330]

Your argument does not prove that. If it did, you should be indifferent between your child dying six other people dying. All it proves is that our moral intuitions do not coincide with any rational basis. This is not a reason to repudiate any rational thought about morality.

[mackthefork]

Hi Bobman

What cash value do you put on your remaining days, imagine no one you care about gets to keep the money if you die, how are you coming to the calculations. If I was going to die tommorrow, I would still refuse all the money in the world in order to keep that one day of life.

I still say math is an inappropriate way to decide who lives and dies. Lets say for example (purely for the sake of numbers), the AIDS epidemic will kill 2 billion people, but we can eradicate this possibility by slaughtering 1 billion people today, is this genocide justified by the net saving of 1 billion people?

Mack

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
So what does that say about US military doctors after world war 2 who gave pregnant women plutonium, just to see what would happen?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are asking me or why, care to clarify?

Mack

[ QUOTE ]
To the people who's opinion matters it is impossible to put a value on a human life. So a life is worth an infinite amount

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay you disagree, that is also fine, so long as you can give me a dollar value that you would accept to be killed today.

Mack

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay you disagree, that is also fine, so long as you can give me a dollar value that you would accept to be killed today.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

No amount of money

I still don't get it

I may value my own life in infinite ways, and I may value others in finite ways, where's the problem here?

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
to have one of their children disembowelled to save 6 people who need organ donations. Anyone who says they wouldn't, can you please stop applying math to situations involving human life.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

This is stupid. You can have different values for different lives, making it make sense mathematically to not be willing to sacrafice your child for 6 other lives, but maybe be willing to sacrafice your child to prevent something on the scale of the holocaust.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Bobman

What cash value do you put on your remaining days, imagine no one you care about gets to keep the money if you die, how are you coming to the calculations. If I was going to die tommorrow, I would still refuse all the money in the world in order to keep that one day of life.

I still say math is an inappropriate way to decide who lives and dies. Lets say for example (purely for the sake of numbers), the AIDS epidemic will kill 2 billion people, but we can eradicate this possibility by slaughtering 1 billion people today, is this genocide justified by the net saving of 1 billion people?

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

Just beucase you can't value a life in terms of money doesn't mean that the value of the life is infinite. The life is just more valuable to you than all the money in the world.

You're really not thinking your argument all the way through.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
To the people who's opinion matters it is impossible to put a monetary value on a human life. So a life is worth an infinite amount, therefore 1 life is = to 6 lives, in a manner of speaking.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
What cash value do you put on your remaining days, imagine no one you care about gets to keep the money if you die, how are you coming to the calculations. If I was going to die tommorrow, I would still refuse all the money in the world in order to keep that one day of life.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is silly. if you were going to die in 366 days, would you sacrifice one day of life at the end of that period for $1B now? I sure would.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
This is stupid. You can have different values for different lives, making it make sense mathematically to not be willing to sacrafice your child for 6 other lives, but maybe be willing to sacrafice your child to prevent something on the scale of the holocaust.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't be willing to make such a sacrifice though, i doubt anyone would. Different lives may have different values to you, but in reality all lives have the same value, your valuation of the said lives are based on personal relationships, nationality, irrational predujudice, etc. The lives of a Russian and an American are of equal worth if you can dig out the reality from underneath your own personal opinions.

Mack

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Just beucase you can't value a life in terms of money doesn't mean that the value of the life is infinite. The life is just more valuable to you than all the money in the world.

You're really not thinking your argument all the way through.

[/ QUOTE ]

What terms can I value my life in then, I can't think of any, even if i admit you have found a hole.

Are you a person who thinks that there is a benefit so great that incinerating 150,000 people is sometimes worthwhile? Not looking to judge, just interested in your opinion.

Mack

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
No amount of money

I still don't get it

I may value my own life in infinite ways, and I may value others in finite ways, where's the problem here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your judgement that one is worth more than another is flawed, no more no less. The judgement of all people making such decisions is clouded by prejudices, and inaccuracies created by those prejudices.

Mack

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is stupid. You can have different values for different lives, making it make sense mathematically to not be willing to sacrafice your child for 6 other lives, but maybe be willing to sacrafice your child to prevent something on the scale of the holocaust.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't be willing to make such a sacrifice though, i doubt anyone would. Different lives may have different values to you, but in reality all lives have the same value, your valuation of the said lives are based on personal relationships, nationality, irrational predujudice, etc. The lives of a Russian and an American are of equal worth if you can dig out the reality from underneath your own personal opinions.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

The flaw in this argument is that you want to give absolute values to things, that seems silly and non-productive to me. A thousand dollars is worth alot more to me than it is to Bill Gates. On the same token, my life is worth more to me than some random persons. Value systems should be pretty personal, we all don't have the same wants and desires.

[ QUOTE ]

The flaw in this argument is that you want to give absolute values to things, that seems silly and non-productive to me. A thousand dollars is worth alot more to me than it is to Bill Gates. On the same token, my life is worth more to me than some random persons. Value systems should be pretty personal, we all don't have the same wants and desires.


[/ QUOTE ]
Amen. Bob also made a bunch of good refutations. Mack would you sacrifice yourself for your child? If you somehow had the choice between having your child killed or random deathrow inmate would you find yourself unable to choose? People's lives are difficult to value (which is why child for 6 is not an obvious choice), but we do have lnes where we start to think that 1 is worth x. Hence the reason I think most people would sacrifice a child to stop the holocaust. To think that nothing can be quantified is a rationalization that people who dont want to make tough choices make.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Mack would you sacrifice yourself for your child?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, for personal reasons. If it was within my power, I don't think I could murder your child to save my child though, assuming I had one.

[ QUOTE ]
If you somehow had the choice between having your child killed or random deathrow inmate would you find yourself unable to choose?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that one is a fair comparison, I of course would make the same decision as above. What if you swap death row inmate for pretty burgular, then ask his mother instead of me, you would probably get a different answer.

[ QUOTE ]
People's lives are difficult to value (which is why child for 6 is not an obvious choice), but we do have lnes where we start to think that 1 is worth x. Hence the reason I think most people would sacrifice a child to stop the holocaust.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no doubt people would sacrifice a child to stop the holocaust, so long as it were not their own. The world was once filled with peole who thought the holocaust was a good idea, probably had some kind of math behind it, to improve the economic lot of Germans. Most people will accept that these people were sick of mind.

[ QUOTE ]
To think that nothing can be quantified is a rationalization that people who dont want to make tough choices make.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say that nothing can be quantified, in my opinion though human life cannot be, unless the valuations are based on an irrational prejudice. Tough choices are all well and good, the most important thing about them though is to decide if they need to made at all. I doubt that nuclear annihilation of China and Russia to make a better more peaceful world, is a good example of one that needs to be made.

I accept the criticisms made by JoshuaD, especially regarding my infinite valuation, perhaps not the best choice of word.

Mack

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
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So what does that say about US military doctors after world war 2 who gave pregnant women plutonium, just to see what would happen?


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Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are asking me or why, care to clarify?

[/ QUOTE ]


Well I'm hoping the doctors at least thought they were torturing and killing people for the greater good, eg, to save people at a later date through advances in scientific knowledge.

In other words, the US Army has already answered your question - in the affirmative.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think that one is a fair comparison, I of course would make the same decision as above. What if you swap death row inmate for pretty burgular, then ask his mother instead of me, you would probably get a different answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey,

That's exactly my point. If I had to choose between my child or yours, I'd choose that mine lives. On the same note, I expect that you would choose that yours lives.

It's impossible to take the subjectivity out of it. I care more about people I'm close to than a random person, and that's ok.

See what I'm getting at? It's natural for a human to value their loved ones more than 6 people they don't know.

[ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say that nothing can be quantified, in my opinion though human life cannot be, unless the valuations are based on an irrational prejudice.


[/ QUOTE ]
Life's value can not be measured.
[ QUOTE ]

I of course would make the same decision as above.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yet, your child's is more valuable then that of a deathrow inmate. I see two possible lines of thought.

a. Its tough to quantify life especially when numbers are very close. However if pressed we can make choices based on the values of lives.

b. Life's value can never be truly quantified and the fact that you would sacrifice anything (including your life) for your child means you are following some irrational predjudices.

[ QUOTE ]

Tough choices are all well and good, the most important thing about them though is to decide if they need to made at all. I doubt that nuclear annihilation of China and Russia to make a better more peaceful world, is a good example of one that needs to be made.


[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Whats the arguement for discussing whether the issue is even a decision that needs to be made. Well its possible we could live peace and nobody/less people will die. Since less people dying > more people dying (from a utilitarian stand point) we have to think about whether its a good idea to discuss such a drastic action.

[AlphaWice]

i wouldnt, because I have the ability to choose and they didnt.

we can still apply math to situations.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No amount of money

I still don't get it

I may value my own life in infinite ways, and I may value others in finite ways, where's the problem here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your judgement that one is worth more than another is flawed, no more no less. The judgement of all people making such decisions is clouded by prejudices, and inaccuracies created by those prejudices.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it may be flawed. But when dealing with others, I can apply math/logic and choose the course of action to maximize greater good.

[KidPokerX]

you have one way of thinking, which i respect, however i believe that killing one billion to save 2 billion is justified. maybe i'm a utilitarian, but i understand the greater good.

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
If I was going to die tommorrow, I would still refuse all the money in the world in order to keep that one day of life.


[/ QUOTE ]

if you knew you were going to die in 7 days would you take all the money you could possibly use if it meant you would die in 6 days? i certainly would. go out with a bang.

sklansky will probably come up with some math equation that proves this is illogical. but the fact of the matter is i don't care about his logic to life situations because he doesn't understand them. he can't separate life from math.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
If I was going to die tommorrow, I would still refuse all the money in the world in order to keep that one day of life.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was going to die tomorrow I would trade that day for an amount of money that would significantly help my wife and children. I'm guessing you don't have a wife and kids.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I was going to die tommorrow, I would still refuse all the money in the world in order to keep that one day of life.


[/ QUOTE ]

if you knew you were going to die in 7 days would you take all the money you could possibly use if it meant you would die in 6 days? i certainly would. go out with a bang.

sklansky will probably come up with some math equation that proves this is illogical. but the fact of the matter is i don't care about his logic to life situations because he doesn't understand them. he can't separate life from math.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think sklansky would agree with this. Most people would.

It depends on what's valuable to you. If 6 days of spending and partying and whathaveyou galore is more valueable to you than one more day, but spent not extravaganting like in the first case.

Some people with family and kids would much rather have the extra day.