2plus2er Sandwich with a Side of Foldslaw?

[Jeffage]

Playing 10 Hold Em at the Taj Mahal..there's an internet poker convention thing going on and I get the pleasure of playing some hands with 2plus2er Baltimore Ron (real nice guy btw). Anyway, here's the hand. I have Kc3c in the BB. 3 players inc. Baltimore Ron limp, SB folds, I check. Flop comes Qc-Jx-2c. I bet, VERY loose player calls, Baltimore Ron Calls, one other calls. Turn is the Jc giving me the flush and pairing the board. I bet, loosie calls, Ron pops it. Ugh, images of QJ in my head but he could just have dry trips. So I call, now loosies comes over the top and makes it 60. Ron calls, I call. How many people can muck in this spot for one bet honestly...can I possibly be beating both of them here? Anyway, river is a horror card, the 2x double pairing the board. I check, loosie checks while saying "bet ur goddamned jack" to Ron in a disgusted tone, Ron bets, I fold, loosie calls. Ron shows J10 for a rivered boat and the other guy mucks claiming he had the ace high flush. So who calls the 2nd turn raise...I'm interested bc without the river of death I prob have to pay off again as well. Just wondering how many of you can lay down here...

Jeff

[astroglide]

online i would definitely call, and at a casino i COULD definitely fold as a default action unless i had a good reason to believe i should call.

i don't mind knowing i folded to AcJh and JTo combined after i see the showdown. the fact that ron can reraise this makes it a not-so-tough fold.

[Clarkmeister]

Why didn't you consider 3 betting the turn? I think you were overconcerned about Ron's hand. However, once you call and the other player limp-3 bets, you are beat >95% of the time.

[Jeffage]

Astro,

The loose player in the middle reraised, not Ron. He called my turn bet, then after Ron raised and I called, he reraised. That's a superman move in my book. You say u would call online...is that because games are more aggressive there...I play 5-10 and 10-20 online also. My thoughts are I may be beating one of these players but not both..

Jeff

[Jeffage]

I considered it but looking at the board and action didn't think it wise. I say Ron would raise the loose limper preflop with AJ...so I'm ahead of KJ-J10, drawing dead to QJ, ace high flush of if Ron flopped bottom set. If the board was J-9-3, turn J, I propably would reraise the turn but I just got a gut read at the time I was beat by one of these guys. I don't fault ur logic though.

Jeff

[astroglide]

right, but ron could have reraised again

and yes, i call online because the players are much bigger nutjobs

[elysium]

hi jeff,
you must fold on the turn here. yea i know, but the deciding factor on this one (hey, i'm starting to type with both hands as i type this. must be getting better.) yea, the deciding factor on this one is, well jeff it's a combination. there's a fairly glaring bad combo here.

let me take a look at this thing. o.k., you know how the SB is always picking on you? well, on the turn you can get a little payback here. you're allowed to call in this spot because of the glare. this may have helped out some, although you're going to lose a little here.

yea, the deciding factor here is position, only we are attacking our positional weakness by another means. in some spots we raise, and in other spots we check. and of course you would fold on the river.

[mikelow]

Make that a side of steak, because you really have to fold this
on the river with two-pair on the board and the check reraise on the turn.

If you are still ahead on the turn, there are still many ways to
lose. Combined with the likelihood of being beat already, this is an easy fold.

[SoBeDude]

I think his medication wore off

[Bob T.]

But he has paragraphs now /forums/images/icons/smile.gif !

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Jeff:

Without knowing anything else about the players I think I make the call. My experience is that even though you should be beat every time, you win enough of these pots to make your call correct. Sometimes they're raising with a smaller flush or a hand like ace-jack where the ace is a club.

Best wishes,
Mason

[PokerPrince]

3-bet the turn.


PokerPrince

[elysium]

hi jeff,
on the turn, i don't think i was clear there. what you could do, in my opinion, in this type situation, is slow down on the turn. i am not sure, you'll have ask mason, but i think checking the turn is mandatory. like i said, i'm not sure, i just think it is, like about 99%.

i know it seems weak, but here a check may give you a little relative position. and who knows, may be they'll fear a check-raise and you can really get out of this one. these are the one's your happy you keep cheap too; but that's not the reason i think the check call works here. i'm not sure but i think you gain position. and then of course, is this a no brainer? did mason say anything negative about your turn bet. he may want to look at that. jeff, i think you must check there. i'd like for mason if he gets a chance to shed some light on this turn bet out. i tell you jeff, i don't know. what i say is check the dang thing. these are bad ones jeff.

[Baltimore Ron]

Jeffage,

I hadn't remembered this hand until your post jarred my remembry. Don't ask me why in the heck I was in this hand with JT, because I don't remember my thinking on the hand. I was out-of-sorts all weekend: did lousy in the ATLARGE tourneys (misread TWO hands in the limit tourney on Friday, when the limits were high enough to cause major chip damage) and had a hard time getting a handle on this particular table on Saturday. I do remember that you were the only player at the table that I had to look out for - keep up the good work.

As to the hand. Like you, I *knew* the guy in between us had a big flush when he called and then reraised the turn. However, in this game (10-20 at the Taj) a "big" flush can be anything from a Jack on up. Since you know you have the king, there is only one flush you need to worry about. And yes, a QJ turned full-house by me is a reasonable fear as well. However, you can't go around fearing the nuts all the time. I don't know if I would three-bet the turn in this instance, but I'd definitely call the other guy's reraise with the intention of calling the river if the board doesn't pair again. The fact that I didn't cap on the turn is a good indication that I didn't have the QJ full-house and makes it safe to call the one big bet. Of course, I could have been slow playing. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

A more interesting question to me is what the third party could have done to protect his hand. If he raises the turn after you bet I probably don't call the two bets, fearing a made flush (giving me poor pot odds to draw on the river) or a Jack with a higher kicker (giving me almost no draws on the river - 3 tens being about it.)

I think this hand was just one of those instances where you saw the flop for free and ended up in a hand that became difficult to play. No biggie. If I remember correctly, you had a decent stack in front of you, so you couldn't have been in this kind of situation too often, yes?

BTW, I came back to that same table later in the evening and the senior citizen in the pink sweatshirt was still putting bad beats on people. LOL

BR