Passive line with set.

[kongo_totte]

Villian is 16.5/3 after a couple of 100 hands. He is about, or slightly below, average aggression post-flop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($58.75)
BB ($50.93)
UTG ($46.30)
Hero ($159.05)
UTG+2 ($21.93)
MP1 ($20.05)
MP2 ($74.55)
MP3 ($49.25)
CO ($57.95)
Button ($66.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($3) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6</font>, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($15) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

River: ($35) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10

[jtr]

You presumably have your reasons for this line, but surely there was a little more value to be had somewhere? Raise the flop, turn or river perhaps?

[Salerosa]

Barring some read on the villain I'm missing (other than he is pretty tight) I think this line is very bad. Reraise the flop or the turn. If he re-raises or pushes then you can let it go (again, without a strong read I'm calling here 100% of the time). Why are you playing 33 in the first place? What other flops are you hoping for? I'm looking to get my money in on the flop, if its set over set so be it.

[GrunchCan]

The opponent's check-minrasie on the flop represents either a set or 2 pair, doesn't it?

[Pocket Trips]

I agree with Salerosa... You got the flop you were hoping for with this hand... you hand will not change in value relative to his very often,(if it is set over set you will still be behind if the board pairs) I reraise the flop to $18 and push the turn (even with the str8 possibility it is not likely he was raising on a str8 draw)

[Salerosa]

I agree that he is representing a set or two pair, but if you are worried about a set that is why you re-raise flop and fold to a push. Or don't play 33, because there is always going to be the possibility of set over set. Again, in all the times I cannot put a villain on anything other than a higher set and call out of stubborness because I have decided that I will get stacked by set over set at SSNL, I am still waaaaay +EV on making the call.

[elus2]

i doubt vpip of 16.3 limps 89s utg. guy plays like a set miner but i re-raise on the flop and re-evaluate.

[elus2]

you play 33 because you can extract value against OTHER opponents.

Smells like 2 pair. I'd throw in a raise on the turn or the river. Your hand is good.

Tears

[punter11235]

This line is terrible...
You really need to get more money with your sets and you cant live in fear of higher sets and other monsters under the bed.
I would reraise flop if you think that in your game such a reraise has too much respect (its common situation) you should definitely raise the turn.
River is terrible... raise here is clear. Villain still may call with 1010 JJ 98...
If you lost to higher set or some miracle str8 good for you but you really cant crush 50NL without getting more value for your good hands.
Terrible play no matter the result.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]
The opponent's check-minrasie on the flop represents either a set or 2 pair, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

He is only like 18/3....this could easily be 10 10 or JJ too. I think you have to reraise somewhere. You are good most of the time I think.

[kongo_totte]

I disagree with almost everyone. I play 3 3 because all pocket pairs are winners for me from any position. However, I have a pretty large sample size that tells me a rock (who is on the passive side post-flop)limps UTG and check-min.raises me when I have bottom set is trouble. As many of you have pointed out, it's hard folding a set in SSNL and I'm not sure I would have been able to, but I'm not going to pump a pot with money when I think there is a great chance I am behind. I'm fine with playing a relatively small pot in this situation.

Also, if he has JJ-TT, he is likely to dump it to a flop 3-raise or a turn re-raise as tight as he is.

[kongo_totte]

EDIT: The sample size should read a couple of hundred hands (I think it was 350-400 or so), not "a couple of 100" (what is that?). My mistake.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a great chance I am behind. I'm fine with playing a relatively small pot in this situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

To win at holdem you need a set of situations when you extract more when you are on the winning side than you lose when you are on the losing side.
Set over set is just breakeven situation, no Villain will fold 333 here when you have 999 or 888 so dont worry about it. Your money comes from situations when one side have 2pairs/overpair and other have set. Most Villains wont fold these...
See your profits ? You are able to fold these 2pairs or overpair to major aggression , most Villains are not. You can put maximum pressure with your sets, most Villains cant.

Best wishes

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a great chance I am behind. I'm fine with playing a relatively small pot in this situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

To win at holdem you need a set of situations when you extract more when you are on the winning side than you lose when you are on the losing side.
Set over set is just breakeven situation, no Villain will fold 333 here when you have 999 or 888 so dont worry about it. Your money comes from situations when one side have 2pairs/overpair and other have set. Most Villains wont fold these...
See your profits ? You are able to fold these 2pairs or overpair to major aggression , most Villains are not. You can put maximum pressure with your sets, most Villains cant.

Best wishes

[/ QUOTE ]

So you mean, just becasue my opponents can't lay down a hand that is likely to be beaten, I should not be able to either?

Note that 98% of the time when I flop a set on this board, I play for my stack. Versus this opponent in this situation however, I don't think I should be so happy to get it all in. As I said, I'd have a hard time folding this, but calling down is the way to go IMO.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
So you mean, just becasue my opponents can't lay down a hand that is likely to be beaten, I should not be able to either?


[/ QUOTE ]
No. I mean that if you try to fold or slowdown with sets under sets you lose much money when Villain has 2pair and overpair. Even if you are good enough (and it is really not easy) to slowdown when Villain actually has a set its not even close to profits you can easily achieve milking his 2pairs /overpair here and breaking even with sets under sets.
Ok if your read is very very strong and you have strong confidence that this particular Villain only play this way with sets maybe you should slowdown here.. but if you in fact has this confidence you certainly wouldnt post this hand here.

Best wishes

[kongo_totte]

I have the read I have posted. VP$IP 16.5 after 350-400 hands, who is pretty passive post flop. His numbers certainly do not indicate he would limp 9 8s UTG. Of course, I can't be 100% certain, but I don't need to be 100% certain. If I were, I would have folded to the flop check-raise.

Also, I might have posted the hand to start a discussion. I am still defending my line.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I might have posted the hand to start a discussion. I am still defending my line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. I think I explained my philosophy on this kind of situations. I think your line is essence of weak tight play and your thinking here is major leak. I appreciate your arguments but I dont agree.

Best wishes

[wtfsvi]

If villain is tight postflop as well (as in he's not playing for his stack with QQ-TT, and probably not check-minraising them anyway), this was played good I think. I sure wouldn't be able to slow down that much in the heat of the battle though. Nice hand.

[Hoopster81]

for the love of god

[kongo_totte]

I altered the hand a bit to make it more interesting. If the river were the K, I would have played it as in OP.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($58.75)
BB ($50.93)
UTG ($46.30)
Hero ($159.05)
UTG+2 ($21.93)
MP1 ($20.05)
MP2 ($74.55)
MP3 ($49.25)
CO ($57.95)
Button ($66.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($3) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6</font>, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($15) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

River: ($35) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $30</font>, UTG calls $19.80 (All-In).

Final Pot: $94.80

Results in white below:
UTG has 8s 8h (full house, eights full of threes).
Hero has 3s 3c (four of a kind, threes).
UTG+2 doesn't show.
Outcome: Hero wins $94.80.

It's a tricky minraise there but I think 2 pair is still a distinct possiblity for players using that line.

Tears

[Salerosa]

400-500 hands is a few more than the 100 that I read and a little better indicator that he's a rock. However, like I said, if you give this guy respect, I'd raise the flop and fold to a push. Re-evalutate the turn if he calls the re-raise on the flop and leads the turn big.

[punter11235]

I may disagree with your plays in general but I certainly respect your reads /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Best wishes

[elus2]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG has 8s 8h (full house, eights full of threes).

[/ QUOTE ]

as expected. i don't mind taking your line because we can expect villain to quickly drop the hands you beat here. i disagree with everyone else's assessment that this is a board we should go broke with. it takes us 500 hands to make back the money we lose (assuming a 10ptbb/100 winrate). the ev maximizing strategy would be to either reraise on the flop so that villain defines his hand as a bigger set or to let him keep betting those hands plus an improbable 89s or overpair. the other posters are overestimating the frequency with which villain limps 89s utg here or JJ/TT and takes the flop line that villain does.

[fimbulwinter]

fim