Set of 10's OOP

[djoyce003]

Literally my very first hand at the table so no reads on this particular villain.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($111.35)
Button ($77.90)
SB ($40.17)
Hero ($100)
UTG ($51.40)
MP ($44.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $2</font>, SB (poster) calls $1.50, Hero calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1.

Didn't want to re-raise with 10 10 out of position because if i get reraised big I have to fold, I'd rather see a cheap flop.

Flop: ($10) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $3</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $15</font>, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls $12.

eureka....lightning in a bottle. Since there are two spades I decide to go for a checkraise here to try to shut everyone out. In hindsight, I think I should have led this for the size of the pot and tried to trap limpers in between...but if they wouldn't call 12, they probably woulnd't have called 9.

Turn: ($40) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, Button calls $20.

Freaking spade. I decide to lead for half the pot because it worries me. If he has the flush i'm dead and hoping for the board to pair, if he doesn't have it but is drawing half pot still gives him poor odds.

River: ($80) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $30</font>, Button calls $30.

At least it's not a spade....fire out a semi-blocker/semi-value bet.

Final Pot: $140

Thoughts?

[Ghazban]

It looks like he only has $40 left on the river-- why bet only $30?

[djoyce003]

I find I usually get more calls if I underbet what they have slightly than putting them all in...the psychology of it and all. A lot of the time here, they'll push the rest of their stack in themselves. I was giving him the chance to do that. I think I'd have lost him if I put him all in...just my thinking.

[Ghazban]

Do you have any data to back that claim up or is it just instinct? I think its more likely to be true in a tournament where people cannot rebuy but, in my experience, people don't call off 3/4 of their stack on the end for less than 1/2 pot when they wouldn't have called off all of it.

[savman]

leading into the raiser is my preferred oop line....when/if he reraises push....in higher games this is effective with sets on the flush b/c it look like flush draw, which u should be playing same way, since this is 100 NL i am not sure if these cats know what the board means, but if he has a big hand, like red kj, he wont most likely wont be able to contain himself and u can shove to his flop raise. BUT even 100 NL donks are afraid of the check raise, b/c it is the preferred line of the donkey and it almost always telegaphs i have a rock crusher; hence, dont do it unless u are looking for a fold, lead and push a raise.

[djoyce003]

I don't have data to support it...just something i've noticed during all my play...there is some kind of a psychological barrier that keeps them from calling all in with marginal hands....there is a better chance of him pushing all in than calling allin himself I think. I don't know how to sort my pt databases to determine if this is 100% accurate but in all the hands i've played, i'd say that i'm generally correct here.

[djoyce003]

On that board, i'm ok with a fold here, which is why I went for the checkraise, although I was hoping he'd make more of a continuation bet than he did....$3 was a weak ass bet into that pot. I have a really good but very vulnerable hand depending on what he has. I'm happy to take down the money in the pot. Also, if he does call my checkraise, i'm in a position to get more money in on the turn with a non-scary card....unfortunately I got a scary card here.

[silvershade]

Pre-flop I think you have to re-raise this given that the raise came from the button and was so small. If it gets re-raised you can always fold, as it stands there are too many to the flop and TT unimproved is going to play nicer against fewer opponents.

On the flop I think its better to just lead out with a largish ( 60-70% pot size ) bet to kill pot odds immediately, only a pair of jacks beats you so far but your hand is vulnerable to both a straight or a flush draw so try to win it immediately.

The turn is an awful card, potentially completing both a gutshot straight and flush draw and putting you behind KK and JJ as well. I think you are now probably re-drawing so bet half the pot and call it a semi-bluff.

On the river I'd make a small bet, if he doesnt have the flush maybe he'll read you as looking to get a call and fold. If he calls fine, if he comes over the top then i think you fold.

[yvesaint]

Mini-raisers pre-flop make pussy bets post-flop. There's a lot of limpers - I think a pot-sized bet on the flop is good here, though the check-raise did the job just fine.

The rest seems fine. Looks like he had some weak 2-pair or maybe was holding the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif with a pair. I think you can bet a little more on the river, like half-pot.

[Andrew Fletcher]

Anyone like checking the river? Overall I thought played the hand pretty well, but I have a few comments.

I agree with the guy who said raise pre-flop. The min-raise from the button could mean anything. A lot of your oppoents probabely have a couple of high cards and you're winning when you're up against just KQ or AJ, but if you are in a multiway pot with a couple of those guys then your win percentage goes way down.

Well, what if the raiser has KK, AA, QQ or JJ? Then he'll re-raise your re-raise and it's easy to get away from the hand.

I like OP's pre-flop play, as I think tens can be a tough hand to play oop. How would hero have acted if he HAD re-raised pre flop, and if a ten did NOT fall on the flop(the most common scenario here, is that you will not hit your set)? This could become a very tough, non profitable hand to play if you get overly aggressive preflop oop with mid-pp's.

Given hero's thinking (wanting everyone out on a very very draw heavy board), I don't mind the check-raise on the flop. I normally lead for ~2/3 pot here, hoping for a raise.

To me, the 1/2 turn pot bet looks scared, and is begging to be raised. I think a $25-30 bet here would be better, and fold to further aggression (depending on the odds, if you minraises (we see this a lot on ssnl) then you can call with your 10 outter).

I like the river bet, as I think villain would have raised on the turn with a made flush. I think your hand is good here.

mho.

I may consider checking the river. I dont think he would bluff if he wasnt sure of his hand. But then again, you have no reads. Most players are willing to check behind on the river though.

[Andrew Fletcher]

Given that most flops miss most hands, you really want to chase out peolpe here. Against just one player, you're mostly going to be ahead on most flops. However, against two or more, you're usually in trouble. I agree that TT is a hand that can be hard to play OOP, particularly in a multi-way pot, which is why you want to try and win the hand before the flop. Or at least thin the herd.

[Allinlife]

Lead the flop.

checking the river is HORRIBLE. your hand will get called by worse range of hands too often if you were to bet out. so you are basically letting all the worse hands to check behind you while paying off the flush when you check this river. I'd put him allin here for reasons ghazban stated.

oh btw, I check turn.

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
On that board, i'm ok with a fold here.....[i have]very vulnerable hand depending on what he has. I'm happy to take down the money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the wrong attitude in NL. u dont play to take down pots, u play to break players. and middle set is a damn fine hand to do it with.

KQspades you are 60/40
KJspades you are 70/30

and it gets better from there given villains range...if he has A rag spades or something u should be begging people to put their money in against ur rock crusher. not to mention he might have overpair, top pair who knows....we want all the money in here every time. plot to break people not take down measly pots with middle set. if u are worried about getting sucked out on for 100 bb u should consider playing limit poker.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On that board, i'm ok with a fold here.....[i have]very vulnerable hand depending on what he has. I'm happy to take down the money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the wrong attitude in NL. u dont play to take down pots, u play to break players. and middle set is a damn fine hand to do it with.

KQspades you are 60/40
KJspades you are 70/30

and it gets better from there given villains range...if he has A rag spades or something u should be begging people to put their money in against ur rock crusher. not to mention he might have overpair, top pair who knows....we want all the money in here every time. plot to break people not take down measly pots with middle set. if u are worried about getting sucked out on for 100 bb u should consider playing limit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do plot to break people. But I've got middle set on a straight/flush happy board. There is 12 bucks in the pot. I'm ok with winning the 12 here on this board. I'm sure my hand is the best one on the flop, so i'm also ok with somebody calling me down here with bad odds...i just don't want to bet small and let them catch. Trying to trap with this hand on this board is IMO insane...i'm running the risk of getting stacked myself if I get cute I think. If the board was 10 7 2 my play would be much different here.

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop.

checking the river is HORRIBLE. your hand will get called by worse range of hands too often if you were to bet out. so you are basically letting all the worse hands to check behind you while paying off the flush when you check this river. I'd put him allin here for reasons ghazban stated.

oh btw, I check turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
He suspects the flush...by betting, he gives the other player the chance to push. Why not check-call? Play it safe if you arent sure.

[savman]

who said anything about trapping, i am talking about leading.....when u check raise u realize they can check through.....THAT IS A DISASTER FOR YOU! if u are nearly certain villain is firing if u check, he will also then be likely to raise your lead...regardless, if u lead u ENSURE the draws pay to see the next card and for what price, and u give opponnent an oppurtunity to make a large error, where in checkraising u give him an oppurtunity to play correctly...i dont checkraise here, making a habit of ckrzing on this board will get u in bad (read costly) situations IMO.

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
i just don't want to bet small and let them catch.


[/ QUOTE ]

at what point did i suggest a weak lead?

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to trap with this hand on this board is IMO insane...

[/ QUOTE ]

what would u define check raising as? i would submit trapping a player for a continuation bet is a fair/basic defenition.

[djoyce003]

i was 99% sure that someone would bet this flop...i didn't see the checkraise as a way to "trap" i saw it as a way to get a little more money in the pot before I pushed everyone out, because I don't want to see a turn here...if I do see a turn, its going to cost someone to do so...that's why I checkraised. A lead seemed like a guaranteed way to make this potentially a threeway or 4way pot on the turn too.

[theben]

id probably have led the flop

[djoyce003]

Concensus seems to be that I should have led the flop. That is probably the way to play it, i'd agree...i stand the chance of trapping people in between myself and the preflop raiser. I'll take that line next time.

Results - Villain had AK off suit...didn't even have a spade, and MHIG. I wonder if he would have folded to a lead or just called....might have stumbled onto the best way to get more money out of his hand on accident here as donkeys tend to call checkraises maybe out of curiosity...not sure. Anyway, thanks for all the responses, I thought it was an interesting hand.