NL200 6max - Butchered AA on a KKx board?

[vanHelsing]

Button is a donk and he is the reason for the rest of us to be at the table.
BB calls too many raises PF, but usually has a strong hand when it comes to showdown. Far from a habitual thief, but good enough to steal occasionally.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($323.45)
MP ($285.65)
CO ($193.50)
Button ($166.20)
SB ($174.73)
BB ($778.28)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $8, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $5</font>, BB calls $5, Hero calls $5.

Why did I check? Board is drawless as can be, so it's a way ahead, way behind situation and I don't want to play a big pot on this board. Feigning weakness looked best to extract most of Button donk. Downside: it might set up BB for a steal...

Turn: ($40) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, Button calls $20, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $100</font>, Hero folds, Button folds.

Fold is clear, right? I don't think I can push him of a weak king and he folds if he is behind. + Donk still to act and even donks get dealt trips.

I felt nitty after this one. Any suggestions about my line which feels somehow weird. Did I set myself up to get bullied of the hand?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Multi-way, I probably check again on the turn. I'm not afraid of a draw at all, I might be behind, and I have the best relative position.

[vanHelsing]

I remeber thinking about this as well. But checking twice somehow underrepresents my hand. Now let's say I check, Donk bets 20, BB makes it 60, I still don't know where I am and have a difficult decission.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Are you kidding? What do you think they are betting/raising with? It's not like the 'good' hand is hidden. If it goes bet, raise, you can easily fold. That's what I meant about having the best relative position.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding? What do you think they are betting/raising with? It's not like the 'good' hand is hidden. If it goes bet, raise, you can easily fold. That's what I meant about having the best relative position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's this easy. Put yourself in the shoes of BB.
If Donk bets, this basicly means Donk has 2 cards. I would prolly raise this as BB with any pocket pair, to drive the 2 time checking PFR out. And as I said, BB is a good NL200er and easily capable of doing stuff like this. That's why I bet out turn, something like a turn blocking bet.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Would you make that move there? No way I'm making that move against even a donk betting a 3-way pot on two streets against a preflop raiser who could very easily be checking AK here twice.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you make that move there? No way I'm making that move against even a donk betting a 3-way pot on two streets against a preflop raiser who could very easily be checking AK here twice.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I read PFR as weak/tight (which possibly was my image so far), yes I occasionally would.
And he is more the tricky kind of player than I am.

[TheWorstPlayer]

If I read PFR as weak/tight it is LESS reason to make the move. What can a weak/tight preflop raiser be calling with on that board? It HAS to be AA/KK/AK/KQ.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Button is a donk and he is the reason for the rest of us to be at the table.
BB calls too many raises PF, but usually has a strong hand when it comes to showdown. Far from a habitual thief, but good enough to steal occasionally.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($323.45)
MP ($285.65)
CO ($193.50)
Button ($166.20)
SB ($174.73)
BB ($778.28)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $8, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $5</font>, BB calls $5, Hero calls $5.

Why did I check? Board is drawless as can be, so it's a way ahead, way behind situation and I don't want to play a big pot on this board. Feigning weakness looked best to extract most of Button donk. Downside: it might set up BB for a steal...

Turn: ($40) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, Button calls $20, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $100</font>, Hero folds, Button folds.

Fold is clear, right? I don't think I can push him of a weak king and he folds if he is behind. + Donk still to act and even donks get dealt trips.

I felt nitty after this one. Any suggestions about my line which feels somehow weird. Did I set myself up to get bullied of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

the turn bet makes no sense to me, esp cos you have the dang a/images/graemlins/heart.gif. coulda saved yourself 20 bucks by checking and folding when facing the inevitable raise.

after the action on the flop, you're ahead here like never.

fim

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
If I read PFR as weak/tight it is LESS reason to make the move. What can a weak/tight preflop raiser be calling with on that board? It HAS to be AA/KK/AK/KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on TWP, only call a $5 bet on a $35 pot with these stacks with AA/KK/AK/KQ? About any PP is worth the call.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Not multi-way with a weak/tight preflop raiser. He's not raising 22 and he's not calling with it multi-way on a KKx flop. And I'm glad to see I'm not the only one thinking this way. Thanks, Fim.

[vanHelsing]

You, as PFR, fold JJ to the $5 flop bet?

[vanHelsing]

Which line do you suggest here?
Just ckeck/fold from flop on? Bet flop and give it up after?

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
You, as PFR, fold JJ to the $5 flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

your donk equity argument goes away with the coldcaller. if he had a solid hand, you'd have heard preflop. that you raised the pot really makes it llikey he has a K and that he'll play it retardedly like he did.

think about it this way:

once that flop hit, your hand became a bluff buster and nothing else. how do we play so as to increase the times we're looking at a bluff and keep the pot small the times they do have it. both of these motivations lie in direct opposition to leading the turn here.

really this is an experience thing. sometimes 84o turns into a monster on the flop, sometimes AA turns into crap. being able to recognize what is what and play accordingly will add ev to all your later street bets, which is where the real money lies.

fim

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Which line do you suggest here?
Just ckeck/fold from flop on? Bet flop and give it up after?

[/ QUOTE ]

check/call flop, then check the turn and expect a check-tard-raise from BB that you will fold to. if he cc's you check call reasonable river bets too.

the interesting thing is what to do when you turn an ace...

fim

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
Button is a donk and he is the reason for the rest of us to be at the table.
BB calls too many raises PF, but usually has a strong hand when it comes to showdown. Far from a habitual thief, but good enough to steal occasionally.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($323.45)
MP ($285.65)
CO ($193.50)
Button ($166.20)
SB ($174.73)
BB ($778.28)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $8, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $5</font>, BB calls $5, Hero calls $5.

Why did I check? Board is drawless as can be, so it's a way ahead, way behind situation and I don't want to play a big pot on this board. Feigning weakness looked best to extract most of Button donk. Downside: it might set up BB for a steal...

Turn: ($40) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, Button calls $20, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $100</font>, Hero folds, Button folds.

Fold is clear, right? I don't think I can push him of a weak king and he folds if he is behind. + Donk still to act and even donks get dealt trips.

I felt nitty after this one. Any suggestions about my line which feels somehow weird. Did I set myself up to get bullied of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

BB's line seems to indicate trip kings to me. It seems like he checked the turn hoping for somebody else to open up and got his wish. He probably figured either you or the Button had enough of hand at this point to pay him off. I think that you made the right fold.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Fim's comments are dead on.

[Shandrax]

Fold was clear, because the pot was "protected" at the time he made the $100 raise - either that or the guy was very good and sensed weakness on both of you. What I don't understand is the reasoning for the check on the flop. I'd bet something like half the pot and fold to a raise. By showing weakness you made him the aggressor and set yourself up for a possible bluff.

[TheWorstPlayer]

By checking and calling he set himself up to catch a potential bluff.

[swolfe]

what changed to make you bet the turn? you're still WA/WB...

FWIW, i'd have bet the flop. it's cheaper, and you may be ahead. it may also buy you position so that you can check the turn and hope to spike your A by the river. KJ or KQ is worried about you having AK...but not if you only check-call the flop.

having taken a passive line on the flop, i think you ought to check the turn. if Button bets and BB makes the same check-raise, then it's obvious at least BB has a K and you can fold and save the money. if Button checks, then you get a free card. betting the turn here makes no sense to me...

[JJJ88]

why check after the flop makes the OP looks weak?
OP can easily have AK and check on the flop.

I think the OP played fine. Just AA running into a bad flop.
BB may well have a King. Nice Fold. You cannot win every pot with AA. In a three way situation, AA will lose a good percentage of pots.