QQ - turn play

[joker122]

all i know is that button is a tag.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero ? intending to?

[baronzeus]

check/raise here


but I 3bet flop

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]


but I 3bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty standard "wait until the turn when our equity is better" hand.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


but I 3bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty standard "wait until the turn when our equity is better" hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is your position vs BB sucks. Check-raising the turn doesn't protect your hand anymore and all these people have the odds to draw to an A, gutshot, flush, or whatever they are doing. That's assuming that you aren't behind already.


Just out of curiosity what do you do if the turn is a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or an A or a T or an 8 or a J or a 6?

[Lmn55d]

hmm..sketchy. I usually 3bet the flop here, especially when I'm OOP and I think it makes it easier to play. I understand your reasons for not doing it though on this board. I think the best thing to do on the turn is bet and fold to a raise. There's an argument for checking to save a bet if it's two bets back to you but I don't think this will happen frequently enough to make checking better than betting. There's also always the risk it gets checked through...BB might fear a checkraise from AK etc. By betting you are saying you have AK/KQ basically so you should be able to fold to a raise.

EDIT: My original post said to call a raise b/c I thought you had AK for some reason...if you bet the turn fold to raise.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


but I 3bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty standard "wait until the turn when our equity is better" hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this works oop. I 3-bet the flop everytime.

Krishan

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


but I 3bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty standard "wait until the turn when our equity is better" hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty standard bad advice.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


but I 3bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty standard "wait until the turn when our equity is better" hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this works oop. I 3-bet the flop everytime.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think it's a matter of it "working." you're thinking about trying to confront the field with 2BB on the turn (and obviously that would be ideal) but it's just a simple matter of not having enough equity to put alot of more bets in on the flop. i don't make theoretical money on the bets that go into the pot because i won't win this pot my fare share, even though i almost surely have the best hand at the moment. on the turn, when my equity is greater, is when i want bets going in. it's the same concept of checking the flop through with top pair on the flop in an attempt to get in 2BB from everyone on the turn (i'll try to dig up an old thread from Bernie which got like 150 replies and was very controversial that demonstrates this).

thats the way i think of it anyway.

[baronzeus]

Your equity is much lower on about 50% of the possible turn cards. Sometimes your equity is 0.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


but I 3bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty standard "wait until the turn when our equity is better" hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty standard bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to elaborate?

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Your equity is much lower on about 50% of the possible turn cards. Sometimes your equity is 0.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you realize this proves my point?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your equity is much lower on about 50% of the possible turn cards. Sometimes your equity is 0.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you realize this proves my point?

[/ QUOTE ]

It helps your point for sure, as long as you are selective about what turns to play and what to fold. But in this case you are out of position and it's going to be VERY difficult to face the field with 2 bets here.

3 betting and leading decent turns is a better option IMO.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


but I 3bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty standard "wait until the turn when our equity is better" hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this works oop. I 3-bet the flop everytime.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think it's a matter of it "working." you're thinking about trying to confront the field with 2BB on the turn (and obviously that would be ideal) but it's just a simple matter of not having enough equity to put alot of more bets in on the flop. i don't make theoretical money on the bets that go into the pot because i won't win this pot my fare share, even though i almost surely have the best hand at the moment. on the turn, when my equity is greater, is when i want bets going in. it's the same concept of checking the flop through with top pair on the flop in an attempt to get in 2BB from everyone on the turn (i'll try to dig up an old thread from Bernie which got like 150 replies and was very controversial that demonstrates this).

thats the way i think of it anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

It just doesn't work that way. Here is the scenerio in position. Someone bets, you can raise but it won't protect your hand. You have good position to raise for value but bad position to raise for protection. You decide to wait until the turn because your equity will be higher. At that point, you still won't be able to protect your hand, but you'll collect a double bet when you have the best of it and put in less bets (that if you raised the flop) when the turn screws your hand. You also have the advantage of seeing if it comes to you for 2 on the turn and folding to a terrible card.

Here is how it works in position. You likely have the best hand. You have great position for value, terrible for protection. There are a lot of draws that could reduce your equity on the turn.

If you call, you HAVE to lead the turn (barring a read). You don't want it to be checked around on a blank turn if everyone is drawing. You also can't face everyone with 2 BB the way you can in position.

If you raise, you gain bets on the flop, and the SAME bets on the turn when the turn is a blank. Also you can trust a turn raise to mean business since you have shown more strength on the flop.

But the final reason to 3-bet the flop is your hand is actually pretty strong. There are a ton of players and you are getting fantastic overlay with the best of it. There aren't as many overcards as when you have TT on a coordinated undercard flop.

Krishan

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
it's going to be VERY difficult to face the field with 2 bets here.


[/ QUOTE ]

read my response to krish.

[baronzeus]

You really don't think you have 25% equity here!? What do your opponents have?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
You really don't think you have 25% equity here!? What do your opponents have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Board: 9h 7d Td
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 33.7763 % 33.78% 00.00% { QcQs }
Hand 2: 20.9302 % 20.93% 00.00% { KhJh }
Hand 3: 45.2935 % 45.29% 00.00% { Ad6d }

[Victor]

3bet the flop.

the way you played it you gotta donk the turn. seeing this turn checked around sux even with the k out there, which is why you should 3bet the flop and lead the turn.

[joker122]

i don't really see how you've refuted my case.

i think it's just a simple matter of forfeitting a marginial edge on the flop for the chance to exploit a large one on the turn, thus netting me more "edge" in the long run.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't really see how you've refuted my case.

i think it's just a simple matter of forfeitting a marginial edge on the flop for the chance to exploit a large one on the turn, thus netting me more "edge" in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just exploit them both, thereby netting you both the edge on the flop and the edge on the turn.

When you wait till the turn to raise a marginal hand, you are giving up a chance to raise for value for a chance to raise for value when the bets double.

In your hand you don't get anything extra by waiting.

Krishan

[joker122]

i really didn't post this because of the flop play. i'm interested in the turn.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't really see how you've refuted my case.

i think it's just a simple matter of forfeitting a marginial edge on the flop for the chance to exploit a large one on the turn, thus netting me more "edge" in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just exploit them both, thereby netting you both the edge on the flop and the edge on the turn.

When you wait till the turn to raise a marginal hand, you are giving up a chance to raise for value for a chance to raise for value when the bets double.

In your hand you don't get anything extra by waiting.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

think "call the flop and checkraise the turn." i can't do that if i 3bet the flop.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
i really didn't post this because of the flop play. i'm interested in the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why the hell are you arguing?

I can't see anything other than bet-call, fold the river unimproved.

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

I think one important point is that it's more difficult to identify changes in equity and exploit them when you're out of position. That's one reason why I like 3betting the flop.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't really see how you've refuted my case.

i think it's just a simple matter of forfeitting a marginial edge on the flop for the chance to exploit a large one on the turn, thus netting me more "edge" in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just exploit them both, thereby netting you both the edge on the flop and the edge on the turn.

When you wait till the turn to raise a marginal hand, you are giving up a chance to raise for value for a chance to raise for value when the bets double.

In your hand you don't get anything extra by waiting.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

think "call the flop and checkraise the turn." i can't do that if i 3bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This plan is really really absurd on this board. Try it when you have 66 on an A62 board. The chance that it checks around is not insignificant. The chance that a scare card freezes up a J is high. This board is way too drawy to try this.

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

I forgot you had the gutshot...you gotta call a raise then and it makes checking a little better than w/o it..but I'd still bet.

[me454555]

I actually like just calling the flop b/c everyone will call your 3 bet anyway.

I check the turn waiting for more info about what the rest of the people do. If bb bets out and no one else raises, I might go for a check raise assuming that I'm still ahead of the rest of the field. If theres a bet and a raise, I think I can toss it.

[ALL1N]

Definiately check the turn, and CR if nobody raises before you. The K is not a reason to not follow your gameplan.

[7ontheline]

[ QUOTE ]
Definiately check the turn, and CR if nobody raises before you. The K is not a reason to not follow your gameplan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate your thought process here? And what do you think about the 3-bet flop vs. call flop argument?

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
i really didn't post this because of the flop play. i'm interested in the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the beauty of posting....

[Victor]

i will say it one more time. seeing this turn checked through is a disaster and that is why you should 3bet and lead the turn.

as is you must lead the turn

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
Definiately check the turn, and CR if nobody raises before you. The K is not a reason to not follow your gameplan.

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem with the k is the guy with a10 may be scared of it and not follow through on betting the turn.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Definiately check the turn, and CR if nobody raises before you. The K is not a reason to not follow your gameplan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate your thought process here? And what do you think about the 3-bet flop vs. call flop argument?

[/ QUOTE ]

BB is generally going to have a strongish hand to raise this flop, and so I feel that he will follow through reasonably often on this turn. Maybe the 5/10 is more passive than I remember, but I think it's quite unlikely that a player aggressive enough to raise this flop will just check the turn.

However, this is a pot where heaps of people will be sharing outs, and so getting the money in as early as possible, and hoping somebody with a flush draw caps the flop has merit.

And once the K comes on the turn, if it comes back to us with nobody having raised, theres still a large chance we're ahead. Failing to raise here with the best hand and so many players in the pot would be pretty hurtful, but raising when behind a small loss.