Representing a hand

[durron597]

When he checked behind on the flop, I put him on an ace bigger than mine. How's the line?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2085)
SB (t2115)
BB (t760)
Hero (t2920)
MP (t3835)
CO (t1785)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t600</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t600, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t1500) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (t1500) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, CO calls t200.

River: (t1900) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t600</font>,

[bluewilde]

Can you walk me through your reasoning?

What's the preflop raise? A lower-risk steal? What do you do if you're reraised? If you're called you're OOP. I'm not seeing what were you trying to accomplish.

*Edit* OK, now I think I get it, you want shortie's chips? Don't know if AT in EP is strong enough to pass through so many players. I'm afraid it will be contested, and you don't have strength or position to pick a fight. This is table-dependent, though.

On the turn you get real creative. I'm impressed; I certainly wouldn't have the confidence to try something like this. You have some wiggle room with your stack, so it really comes down how smart your opponent is. You check the flop, minbet the second king, and put in a substantial, but, due to the size of the pot, callable bet on the river. Is he gonna know that this doesn't add up and that you almost have to have AK? I don't know, at my buy-ins they wouldn't pick up on this. If you really think your guy is paying close enough attention to "know" his hand isn't good here, I think this is brilliant. You basically pay 200 chips on the turn, an otherwise ugly bet, as a cheap way of setting up a bluff the river. If you get action on the turn, you can leave unscathed. Such a cool idea.

Still, if this guy is not very attentive, this is too fancy. You can't outplay an idiot unless you have the best hand. So this is very dependent on your impression of the villain.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

*Edit* OK, now I think I get it, you want shortie's chips? Don't know if AT in EP is strong enough to pass through so many players. I'm afraid it will be contested, and you don't have strength or position to pick a fight. This is table-dependent, though.


[/ QUOTE ]

Table was very tight, and it was only 6 handed. I have no problem getting allin against the BB given his random hand and stack size.

[ QUOTE ]

put in a substantial, but, due to the size of the pot, callable bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also look at his stack size. It's 2/3 of his remaining stack.

[ QUOTE ]
Such a cool idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got my logic spot on. But I'm not sure how smart it was. I was so almost certainly beat here. I debated just checkfolding but then decided he didn't like the board either and I could probably get a fold. But AK wouldn't bet big on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]

So this is very dependent on your impression of the villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I posted the hand, I think. Would you fold 88 here? What is the smallest PP that you call the river with given stack size? I felt like I represented AK pretty well, but the pot is SO big.

[lastchance]

Really interesting, to say the least. There's t1500 in the pot, and you've only got so much behind. I don't like the minbet, unless it's about trying to represent strength.

Real strength is betting out t700 on the turn, IMHO, and shoving the river.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Really interesting, to say the least. There's t1500 in the pot, and you've only got so much behind. I don't like the minbet, unless it's about trying to represent strength.

Real strength is betting out t700 on the turn, IMHO, and shoving the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would a King check the flop and bet 700 on the turn? Seriously? Look at stack sizes, too.

[bluewilde]

Yeah. Let's start at the beginnig. Your PF raise indicates strength. Villains PF call means...that villain called. Your checking on the flop doesn't mean weakness. Villain could easily think you have TP and that you wanted to CR the flush-draw. If he has a K, however, he can't check behind (again, flush draw). So we think villain doesn't have a K. Combined with PF action this means mid-premium PP or AQ/AJ (or villain is a jackass with 66 and we're drawing dead on the turn). These are the hands that beat us that we are trying to convince him to fold.

IMO, if you bet the turn strong it screams weakness. It's plugging your ears/covering your eyes and going "lalala I have chips go away."

1) Any significant strength you show on the turn commits the villain if he calls
2) Any significant bet says you can't beat three Ks and inclines CO to call with some of the PPs he might be holding

Maybe villain will pick up on the fact that a mid-low pocket pair would bet so anxiously (that is, making lastchance's recommended aggressive bet), and if he has AJ+ he may fold. But he won'd fold Qs and Js. IMO, making any move here is only good if it will convince villain to fold, not only his better aces, but PPs as well. The only way to show the strength that could convince these hands to fold is to be sneaky. If you don't think such an approach works because a) villain isn't sharp enough to notice or b) villain isn't strong enough to respond accordingly, then you're best off check/folding it down. Trying to bully him in a straightforward manner will tend to be called by weak hands that are still beating you. Villain is crippled if he folds, so if he has any reason to doubt the sincerity of a big turn raise, he will call. Still, villain is committed/done if he calls, so if he has any reason to doubt the sincerity of a meek turn/river combo, he will fold. It really depends on how well you know the guy. I never know my opponent well enough to do this, but Durron might, especially at a buy-in above the 10s (I don't know how the field is at the $16 turbos, but it might be strong enough for you to make solid evaluations of how a guy plays).

[freemoney]

i fold here 0% of the time with 88, i dont think you represent AK here at all all you seem to do is play off of what villian tells you- he checks flop so you bet a little on turn he jst calls so he has an ok but weak hand ill bet more on the river its not really indicative to a strong hand, i call with any pair everytime here.

[NYCNative]

I would never check that flop if I did have AK because of the flush draw and I wonder who would. I would have put you on a flush draw that missed with that line with a blocking turn bet and a looks-like-a-value-bet-steal on the river.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really interesting, to say the least. There's t1500 in the pot, and you've only got so much behind. I don't like the minbet, unless it's about trying to represent strength.

Real strength is betting out t700 on the turn, IMHO, and shoving the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would a King check the flop and bet 700 on the turn? Seriously? Look at stack sizes, too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Only if it was smart.

[Nottom]

What hand are you representing? Its certainly not a K.

I guess I would think you have some sort of middling pair here.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really interesting, to say the least. There's t1500 in the pot, and you've only got so much behind. I don't like the minbet, unless it's about trying to represent strength.

Real strength is betting out t700 on the turn, IMHO, and shoving the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would a King check the flop and bet 700 on the turn? Seriously? Look at stack sizes, too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, but you can't represent a King now. Could always try representing a 6...

Ok, any hand you're beat calls you, and any hand you beat folds...

Check the turn, block bet the river?

Or just push turn, cuz you probably have the best hand, and you don't want to see anyone hit river on their 6 outs.

Turn is a pretty bad card to bet on, IMHO, with the third king here, but it also means your opponent didn't hit anything.

If you have a pair that's not a king on the flop, do you really check it? Your opponent's got 5+ outs, and there are a lot of chips in the middle.

I think I like pushing the turn, because I've got the best hand, and if he calls with AQ or AJ, so be it.

[ChipLeader]

Your 600 bet should have been on the flop, or maybe 500 since you can fold to his push- then you could have stayed away from this situation. As was played, you committed most of his chips and even if he thinks you have a K he is probably going to call you because he doesnt want to fold with a 900 stack. A continuation bet on the flop would have settled everything- he has a hand hes willing to go with or he doesnt and you win a good pot. Hes not calling with AQ/AJ here, and i dont think he calls preflop with any K except AK which leaves you screwed no matter hwo you play it. You might get a PP to fold since he'll likely fear the K, this play got way too fancy and involved when it could have been avoided.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
Your 600 bet should have been on the flop, or maybe 500 since you can fold to his push- then you could have stayed away from this situation. As was played, you committed most of his chips and even if he thinks you have a K he is probably going to call you because he doesnt want to fold with a 900 stack. A continuation bet on the flop would have settled everything- he has a hand hes willing to go with or he doesnt and you win a good pot. Hes not calling with AQ/AJ here, and i dont think he calls preflop with any K except AK which leaves you screwed no matter hwo you play it. You might get a PP to fold since he'll likely fear the K, this play got way too fancy and involved when it could have been avoided.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like cont-betting this flop, and I cont-bet a lot of flops. There's a K + a flush draw. Meh. I think checking here, check/folding, actually, is a pretty good idea.

And any cont-bet should be for all of your stack, I think. At least that's what I do most of the time.

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like cont-betting this flop, and I cont-bet a lot of flops. There's a K + a flush draw. Meh. I think checking here, check/folding, actually, is a pretty good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]
Im not too worried about the flush draw, hes not calling over 1/3 of his stack preflop with a suited connector or Ax suited unless its AQ/AJs, but you have the As so what flush draw is he on? Why dont you like the cont. bet exactly? A low PP is put to a very tough decision for his tournament life and you get better aces (AQ/AJ) out. I love the cont. bet here

[ QUOTE ]
And any cont-bet should be for all of your stack, I think. At least that's what I do most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have 2300, the pot is 1500, why on earth do you push?!?!

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like cont-betting this flop, and I cont-bet a lot of flops.

[/ QUOTE ]Wait, you don't CB this flop if you have the King? If you do it when you have the King, you can't not bet it and then try and represent that you had it later, IMHO. Hero decided that he would represent the king but it was a street too late.

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]

Turn is a pretty bad card to bet on, IMHO, with the third king here, but it also means your opponent didn't hit anything.


[/ QUOTE ]
So you dont like betting the K... but then you go on to say...
[ QUOTE ]

I think I like pushing the turn, because I've got the best hand, and if he calls with AQ or AJ, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you dont like betting the K but you would? I dont get it, and do you really think AT is the best hand here?! Whats he calling with that is behind, A9-A2 or QJ? I dont think so...
Continuation bet the flop- im fairly convinced this is the best line.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
And any cont-bet should be for all of your stack, I think. At least that's what I do most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have 2300, the pot is 1500, why on earth do you push?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I have 2300, and the pot is 1500...

Ok, let me see here, I responded too quickly without thinking it through.


Preflop: What?! Villain called off a third of his stack. Either he has AA/KK, or he sucks at poker. Maybe it's a mid-PP, some high cards. But I think Villain just wants to see a flop and not get bullied. I operate under the assumption that he sucks at poker.

Flop: Ok, king on the board. Villain very well could have KJ or KQ, KT maybe, perhaps worse. Good spot to check, I think. Dunno if I can get 77+ to fold here either.

Turn: Hmm.. He checked behind. Well, he could be a trappy, tricky type of player that likes to outsmart people, and he really has trip Kings right now. Or he just checked a weak pair. But I think he's got absolutely nothing, and I think it'll be very hard for him to call knowing he's got nothing. Shove time.

Here, I'm not representing a King. I'm representing mid PP, which should beat Villain here. And in any case, I've got the best hand over 50% of the time, IMHO, and Villain's not paying me off with a worse one, cuz he's a calling donk.

But even they're going to have a hard time calling with just Ace-high or whatever they called with preflop, which I don't think is much.

So, that's why I bet the turn. Because my opponents have nothing, and the pot is huge.

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, you don't CB this flop if you have the King? If you do it when you have the King, you can't not bet it and then try and represent that you had it later, IMHO. Hero decided that he would represent the king but it was a street too late.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right on! The K is a scared card to any hand the opponent has unless he has a K- in which case youre doomed no matter how you play this short of check/folding- which i dont recommend.

Cont. bet the K on the flop, he doesnt have a flush draw because you have the As and the Ks is on board, which doesnt leave him much. Also, you represent the K by betting it, not checking it and betting the turn.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Whats he calling with that is behind, A9-A2 or QJ?

[/ QUOTE ]I've made a similar move to this one, representing a hand and then making what screamed out as a value bet on the river, not because I wanted someone with less than me to call but because I wanted someone with more than me but still far from the nuts to fold. I have been somewhat successful when I have tried this, however in order to do it you have to represent a hand from PF to river whereas hero here didn't do that.

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
And any cont-bet should be for all of your stack, I think. At least that's what I do most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have 2300, the pot is 1500, why on earth do you push?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I have 2300, and the pot is 1500...

[/ QUOTE ]

A continuation bet is roughly half the pot, 700ish usually but i like 600 here. This leaves you with 1700 if you have to give up on the hand, there is NO good reason to push here.

[ChipLeader]

The move could be effective at a sophisticated level- i dont feel this is the right time. Also, that line you were quoting came from my response to someone saying "you probably have the best hand right now."
I was merely pointing out theres no way you have the best hand right now, but you CAN represent it.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
And any cont-bet should be for all of your stack, I think. At least that's what I do most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have 2300, the pot is 1500, why on earth do you push?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I have 2300, and the pot is 1500...

[/ QUOTE ]

A continuation bet is roughly half the pot, 700ish usually but i like 600 here. This leaves you with 1700 if you have to give up on the hand, there is NO good reason to push here.

[/ QUOTE ]
t1700 with t2700 in the middle. This pot is worth taking down, and any small bet looks fishy here, unless you're going up against a good player, which you really aren't, IMHO.

I think Durron gets shown AA/Quads 20% of the time here. He's ahead about 55% of the time. He gets AJ/AQ about 15%, and I think he gets laydowns. Finally, Villain has a something that's not good 10% of the time.

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]

t1700 with t2700 in the middle. This pot is worth taking down, and any small bet looks fishy here, unless you're going up against a good player, which you really aren't, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]
The pot isnt t2700, it is t1500. Notice if you dont make the continuation bet it stays at t1500 and pushing t2300 is absurd. The continuation bet leaves them forced to push the rest or fold, exactly what pushing would do except that you can fold to a raise.
MCU Tip #3- What you have already invested in the pot doesn't matter.
Its not yours, its the pot's, and pushign nothing seems horrible. Youll get the same folds from a bet but risk less. Your decision to go after a pot shouldnt be based solely on how much youve invested already.

[ QUOTE ]

I think Durron gets shown AA/Quads 20% of the time here. He's ahead about 55% of the time. He gets AJ/AQ about 15%, and I think he gets laydowns. Finally, Villain has a something that's not good 10% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus... are you kidding me?
Quads ARENT POSSIBLE... AA raises... WHAT ARE YOU AHEAD OF 55% OF THE TIME THAT CALLS PREFLOP?!

You are really going to confuse this poor original poster.

[lastchance]

You're right. Meh, I just need to think this through more.

I'm focusing a lot on the preflop action. It tells me one of two things:
Villain has AA/KK and is trapping, or Villain is a donk.

I think Villain is a donk is the better explanation, so let's go with that.

Do donks check kings behind here if they're not trappy-limp people (and I don't see a lot of these people), I don't think so. I think they fire out minbets and small bets here instead of checking.

So, Villain can't have Kx. Does Villain have 77+? I don't think so either, they're going to try to bet those.

I also think Villain has a very wide calling range here, because I think he's a donk. I think Villain could have called QJs or A2 here preflop, even though it's horrible, especially if Durron's been aggressive lately.

Weak pairs check behind, sure. Absolute junk checks behind. Kings don't. Trappers could check behind.

And I bet all-in on the pot because that's what I do with kings, 77+, and most hands that are worth anything in general, and I don't think it's close, but being able to fold to a reraise on an absolute steal where your opponent isn't a thinker is probably a good idea here.

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]

Villain has AA/KK and is trapping, or Villain is a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]
Donk, i promise. Also, we're trying to win this pot and the flop is clearly the best place. Any hand we're ahead of will fold, and i really think donk has AQ/AJ or a low PP. Most of these hands he'll fold to the K and thats what we're after. If he has a low PP AND doesnt fold we still have 6 outs. If donk has AK or KQ we've decided were screwed regardless.

[ QUOTE ]

Do donks check kings behind here if they're not trappy-limp people (and I don't see a lot of these people), I don't think so. I think they fire out minbets and small bets here instead of checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, so make the bet and find out. Youre giving yourself a much better chance to win by making the cont. bet on the flop than by checking and trying to manuever later on. The flop is where youd have hit your K and youd have bet it. Ignore flush draw potential, the lack of As and Ks makes it way too distant for the action given.

[ QUOTE ]

So, Villain can't have Kx. Does Villain have 77+? I don't think so either, they're going to try to bet those.

[/ QUOTE ]
If we made the continuation bet he wins with Kx, plain and simple, and might fold the best hand if he lays down a PP, thus the power of this play.

[ QUOTE ]

I also think Villain has a very wide calling range here, because I think he's a donk. I think Villain could have called QJs or A2 here preflop, even though it's horrible, especially if Durron's been aggressive lately.

[/ QUOTE ]
No evidence to support Durron has been overly aggressive, and even donks im not giving credit for QJ. I dont understand why you dont like the continuation bet with the range of hands youve given him... seems like if we agree hes playing bad hands (esp. if hes playing as bad as you give him credit for) then the cont. bet is perfect- take it down with no free cards.

[lastchance]

Ok, here we go.

A contuination bet could be a good idea, but Villain will call Kings here, and they'll hit. Checking here allows you to find out whether or not Villain has a King for free. You check, Villain checks. You know he doesn't have a King.

He's a donk, so he isn't thinking about whether or not you have a King, though he might find it fishy that you check flop and wants to call you.

77+... I don't think you get donks to fold those types of hands on the flop. Meh, just me, though it would be reason to cont-bet here.

Ok, so when the king hits the turn, what could he have? Maybe a 6 (though even donks aren't calling stuff like J6 here) or a 4? Doubtful. Set? Nope. King? Of course not.

By checking, we have figured out that Villain has nothing, and now our contuination bet here wins instead of 60% of the time, around 90% of the time. Of course, he may call with AJ or AQ here, whereas you may have more success on the flop, but you've got the best hand on the turn with Ace High, and so you're going to bet it to stop people from hitting 6 outs on the river.

It's not about what you have, or what you're representing. It's about what Villain doesn't have, and he doesn't have a hand, and most Villains aren't going to think any more than that.

[durron597]

Remember guys, we're playing against real people. Sure, they are often donks, but sometimes donks think highly of themselves even though they play donkily. Obviously I wouldn't try something like this if I thought there was zero chance he lays down JJ in this spot.

I have been raising lots of pots and cont betting the few times I get called. This time I didn't, mostly because I thought I was behind to his entire range and he had over 1/3 of his stack in the middle. So I checked intending to fold to his bet and he checked behind. This to me indicates that he doesn't like the board because if he did, his stack size is such that he would just bet.

When the second King comes, I know that it doesn't help him. But the only way that it has any chance of turning into a fold on his end by a mid PP is if he thinks I was slowplaying a monster. So why would betting 700 represent AK? It certainly wouldn't. And I don't think he's *perceptive enough* to think a check on the flop and a large turn bet is QQ/JJ. In fact I would think were I in his shoes that it means AQ-AT. So I minbet, trying to continue the slowplay in a sense but it's a bet that gets more chips in the middle. The thing is that I have wiggle room in my stack but Villian doesn't have any in his.

On the river, he has ~980 behind and the pot is 1900. I bet 600, 2/3 of his stack; a small bet that screams like it wants a call, and big enough to seriously dent his stack.

So, what were the results? He folded. I don't know what he had. I don't know if I got him to fold a better Ace or a PP but he folded so, yeah.

Oh yeah. The other thing about waiting to the river is that people who have a hand like AQ here might call their stack given the size of the pot and "I might hit an ace". On the river people are more reluctant to call with A high.

Yea, I have to agree with Daliman, a person holding a king should check the flop, betting to charge a flush draw is usually a bad play, and giving a free card in this example would be a good play with a king. It is a bad play to bet big on that flop with a king because it is giving better odds to the flush draws if they call. The short stack would have all the more reason to push with a flush draw also, so that play is very dangerous if not just bad. The turn is where the flush draws should be eliminated, and a bet of 700 would make sense, which would make the odds much worse for a flush draw to call. In this particular game, I understand that your opponent is most likely not thinking on these same lines, so your play is most likely +ev, but this play against good players is not likely to be beneficial. But thinking that there is a flush draw out there so it must be charged or chased away is DEFINITELY -ev, at least in my opinion.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
But thinking that there is a flush draw out there so it must be charged or chased away is DEFINITELY -ev, at least in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm HU. Villians don't ALWAYS have the flush draw, in fact they frequently don't.

I did not say that, I was just responding to you saying "Would a king bet 700 on the turn?" I think a king definitely would make that play, and that it would be a good play. Many other posters also discussed chasing away the flush draws, which I disagreed with. I think you did a good job of representing a king against this player, but I am saying against different opponents I am not sure this play would be a wise one.