Why Not a Religion where "Belief" is Neccesary but Not Sufficient. [Archive]

David Sklansky

08-07-2005, 02:49 AM

Is there such a religion? Jews, some Catholics, Sklanskians, Pair the Boardians, and some others, seem to think you can avoid hell with good works even if your beliefs aren't up to snuff. (Although those Catholics apparently think that fewer good works are needed if you do believe. Maybe none at all.) Meanwhile, many Christians and probably others, seem to think you can avoid hell even if you are a scoundrel if you truly believe, (or "accept Christ", or whatever you want to call it). And, of course, atheists don't believe in hell.

So why isn't there a religion that believes that you must both believe and do good stuff to avoid hell? If there is such a religion, its not a common one, I don't think. I have an idea, but want to hear your's first.

imported_anacardo

08-07-2005, 02:52 AM

A perfect example of what you describe, though not in according-to-Hoyle terms of "avoiding Hell," would be the Bahai Faith.

Jordan Olsommer

08-07-2005, 03:13 AM

As any religion gets sufficiently popular, reforms start taking place, one of the first of which is undoubtedly going to be "how about if we just be decent people instead of believing all this fairy tale stuff?" So it's going to be either the original core of one of the major religions (which at some point spun off one of the "we're just Good People" sects), or it has not yet attracted enough people to have such reforms come up.

So in my view the "we don't need to believe, we just need to behave" bit is inevitable, eventually. The only way around it is to either concentrate on the subset of hardcore orthodox types found in any religion, or concentrate on religions with small congregations (which is pretty much the same thing - show me a small religion and I'll show you a religion with dedicated practitioners, whether the religion happens to be waxing or waning).

xniNja

08-07-2005, 03:21 AM

Interesting topic... in terms of Christianity you could compare predestination and the more Protestant view that your actions determine your salvation. I believe the Bible clearly states something like "For each good deed, he shall receive ten like it (-in heaven) no man shall be wronged," which, if you believe the Bible is the word of God, would suggest your actions deem you worthy or unworthy.

In terms of other religions, most I have studied that involve some belief in an afterlife focus on merit rather than belief. Examples; Hinduism/Buddhism generally reflects that your next life will be based on how you treated other living things in this life and not so much what you think or believe. On the other hand, there are few clews on how to achieve enlightenment. Another interesting example are the Egyptians.. for them everyone made it to the afterlife, but where you were in the afterlife was determined by where you were in this life, and what you took with you to the next. The implication here, again, isn't based on any necessary "belief" in the Gods. Here's why:

Christianity, and/or derivations of the Old Testament and Koran, to my knowledge, are the only religions that strictly require their followers to "believe" in order to ascend into "heaven" or the afterlife. The simple reason is because these religions were used to bond together large groups of people to fight/believe in the same cause. If people didn't think it was necessary to believe to reach Heaven, then they wouldn't have- and it would not have been so easy to influence them.

sexdrugsmoney

08-07-2005, 03:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there such a religion? Jews, some Catholics, Sklanskians, Pair the Boardians, and some others, seem to think you can avoid hell with good works even if your beliefs aren't up to snuff. (Although those Catholics apparently think that fewer good works are needed if you do believe. Maybe none at all.) Meanwhile, many Christians and probably others, seem to think you can avoid hell even if you are a scoundrel if you truly believe, (or "accept Christ", or whatever you want to call it). And, of course, atheists don't believe in hell.

So why isn't there a religion that believes that you must both believe and do good stuff to avoid hell? If there is such a religion, its not a common one, I don't think. I have an idea, but want to hear your's first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Islam says you have to believe but also do the 5 pillars (make the Hajj, pay charity "zakat" etc)

As for Christianity, while John 3:16 is touted alot that anyone can 'accept Christ' and they are saved, there are a few verses in Matthew that I've always wondered about:

[ QUOTE ]
Chapter 7 v21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ofcourse I don't know if this applies to only the hypocrites who merely profit off Jesus (eg - the many TV evangelists) or also is applicable to someone who says "Sorry for my sins, I believe" and then doesn't give a second thought to it for the rest of their days?

Tricky Skalnsky.

08-07-2005, 04:20 AM

"so why isnt there a religon that believes that you must both believe and do good stuff to avoid hell"

ive never asked a catholic priest or minister but i always assumed that all but the looniest of born agains thought that believers could still earn a place in hell if they tried hard enough...abortion clinic bombers and the like. i also thought that this is what constituted a mortal sin in catholic circles, but im neither of these religons so i realy cant say.

i do know, however, that in the mormon church, belief(mormon belief) alone neither guarentees heaven or excludes hell. even the faithiest believer needs good deeds to make it to the tip top of heaven. likewise, a nonbeliever and a believer with equally bad deeds here on earth both have the exact same eternal fate.

belief actualy makes things a bit tougher on the individual as u dont have an excuse for misbehaving. belief on this earth is not even neccesarily required (for non mormons) for heaven while good acts most certainly are. interestingly mr sklansky(a non believer i think i can safely say) is most likely eligible for all of heavens eternal rewards while i (a baptized mormon who doesnt quite buy all the specifics) am probably not. i have recieved the holy spirit and have had the privlage of knowing revealed truths, mr sklansky has not. upon his death someone will be baptized in mr sklanskys name here on earth. mr sklansky, at this time will have the option of accepting or rejecting this baptism which is necasary along with good works for entry into heaven. at this point he will have more complete information so i assume he will make the correct decision. im a little bit screwed as ive alreadt accepted but im not so sure about the believing.

btw im no expert on mormon doctrine or anything so the last 2 paragraphs are anything but definitive. they are however, answers that were given to me by church leaders and teachers that i knew and questioned while growing up in the church. i have no idea whether or not they were just blowing smoke up my ass in order to give me a nice sounding answer. i never realy even looked for definitive answers cuz the specifics of a ridiculus idea dont seem relevent but nonetheless i think ive given a fair assesment of what mormons believe is required.

08-07-2005, 04:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]

As for Christianity, while John 3:16 is touted alot that anyone can 'accept Christ' and they are saved, there are a few verses in Matthew that I've always wondered about:

[ QUOTE ]
Chapter 7 v21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

u dont have to read that far to find contradictions and unresolvable differences in the bible...
...but then just a little faith is required that all will be explained...
...of course this screws the nearly 90% of people who merely choose the same religon as their father, allthough if catholics are right maybe only 80% of us are doomed

PairTheBoard

08-07-2005, 04:49 AM

threeonefour

08-07-2005, 05:39 AM

I am 99% sure the LDS faith fits Sklansky's description. not a major religion but it does have about 12 million members I believe.

I think Jehovah's witnesses are the same actually.

NotReady

08-07-2005, 10:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]

So why isn't there a religion that believes that you must both believe and do good stuff to avoid hell? If there is such a religion, its not a common one, I don't think. I have an idea, but want to hear your's first.

[/ QUOTE ]

You still don't understand basic Christianity. We are justified by faith alone which means our sins are forgiven when we trust in Christ. But the New Testament is clear throughout that empty belief does not save. Read the Book of James. It isn't that we are justified by works, nor is it that God owes us anything because we do good deeds. But it is clear that someone who says they have converted but remain unchanged have not really exercised genuine faith.

The idea that you can mouth the words "I accept Christ as my Saviour" and then lead any kind of life you like and still consider yourself a true Christian is completely false. Belief means faith means trust which produces fruit. Being born again means being regenerated and receiving a new heart. A new heart produces evidence through a changed life.

All this is by grace not on the basis of works. But works follow the exercise of God's grace. Always.

cookmg

08-07-2005, 01:32 PM

My understanding of Mormon doctrine is that prior to life on earth we were all given the option to follow Lucifer's plan and spend eternity in outer darkness (hell) or we could accept God's plan and come to Earth to prove our relative worthiness of God's glory. In heaven (which is were all Earth residents go after death) there are 3 kindoms in increasing order of greatness: terestrial, telestial, and the celestial. I've been told that the terestrial kingdom is essentially just like Earth, but you're surrounding by all the other low-lifes who couldn't make it to a better kingdom. The top level celestial kindom is the ideal. Here you can rise throuh 3 levels within the kindom to reach equivlant status to your God in fact becoming a god over your own planet. The telestial kindom falls in-between somewhere. I think you can make telestial heaven with just good works or a good heart depending on your individual circumstances. The interesting thing, like the previous poster pointed out, is that we all have a chance to have the truth revealed to us in the spirit world as we sort out which heaven we will go to. So, conceivably you can make the highest levels of heaven -- a god yourself -- without believing in heaven until after you die. BUT, that doesn't take you off the hook if you "know" in your heart the truth and deny it for earthly satisfaction.

Sorry if I got anything terribly wrong.

quinn

08-07-2005, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why Not a Religion where "Belief" is Neccesary but Not Sufficient

[/ QUOTE ]

Christianity and Islam both satisfy this condition.

Christianity requires faith, not just belief.

According to Muslims, your good deeds must outweigh your bad deeds in order for you to go to paradise.

thejameser

08-07-2005, 04:31 PM

mormon

Stuey

08-07-2005, 04:32 PM

If we are indeed judged when we die and sent to a heaven or a hell based on some standard set by a supreme being and we assume he always judges us correctly. Would it not be logical to assume no individual would feel they were sent to hell, as they are where they belong?

The "good" people would look at the place the "bad" people were sent and view it as hell. And the "bad" people would look at the place the "good" people were sent and view it as hell.

If we have any retained consciousness after death everyone will consider it heaven imo.

bills217

08-07-2005, 05:20 PM

As it relates to Christianity, this New Testament passage (among others) would seem to indicate faith alone doesn't do the trick:

"My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actions do not prove it? Can that faith save you?....So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead...Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe -- and tremble with fear...So then, as the body without the spirit is dead, also faith without actions is dead."

James 2:14-26

08-07-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As it relates to Christianity, this New Testament passage (among others) would seem to indicate faith alone doesn't do the trick:

"My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actions do not prove it? Can that faith save you?....So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead...Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe -- and tremble with fear...So then, as the body without the spirit is dead, also faith without actions is dead."

James 2:14-26

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe that this passage is interpreted as meaning that it is not possible to have faith without the good works. thus the scoundrel who believes(or has faith) will not make it to heaven because he actually does not have faith or believe.

bills217

08-07-2005, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i believe that this passage is interpreted as meaning that it is not possible to have faith without the good works. thus the scoundrel who believes(or has faith) will not make it to heaven because he actually does not have faith or believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

08-07-2005, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i believe that this passage is interpreted as meaning that it is not possible to have faith without the good works. thus the scoundrel who believes(or has faith) will not make it to heaven because he actually does not have faith or believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

so its not that "faith alone doesnt do the trick" but rather, faith alone does not exist and is impossible.
seems to me that broadening the definition of faith is just a convienant way to continue to assesrt that faith alone will save someone and avoid answering the OP.

PairTheBoard

08-07-2005, 06:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i believe that this passage is interpreted as meaning that it is not possible to have faith without the good works. thus the scoundrel who believes(or has faith) will not make it to heaven because he actually does not have faith or believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

so its not that "faith alone doesnt do the trick" but rather, faith alone does not exist and is impossible.
seems to me that broadening the definition of faith is just a convienant way to continue to assesrt that faith alone will save someone and avoid answering the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

A -> B
A -> C
Therefore
C -> B
?

Or
A -> B
A -> C
Therefore
A+C -> B
?

Illogical right?

But

Faith -> Salvation
Faith -> Good Works
Therefore
Good Works -> Salvation
or it must be that
Faith + Good Works -> Salvation
??

Is this the logic that launched a thousand 2+2 winning poker players?

PairTheBoard

08-07-2005, 07:17 PM

just curious if NotReady and other like minds would approve of this anaolgy for what God considers when judging.

in allmost all math classes i took it was neccasry to show your work(your reasoning) in addition to answering the question in order to recieve full credit for any problem. the number of points awarded would vary but yur score for any problem could be broken down into 4 categories.

1. you get the correct answer and show the correct work, this would result in the highest possible score.
2. you could get the answer tech. wrong but show the correct work, this would give u the 2nd highest possible score.
3. you could get the answer right but show the wrong work, this gets u the 3rd highest score.
4. and u could get the answer and the work wrong for the lowest score.

so god is the teacher, students are people, test is our earthly test, specific answers are our deeds, and showing yur work is ones beliefs.

1 is a believer who does good works, 2 is a believer who does not do good works, 3 is the athiest who does good works and 4 is the athiest who does not do good works.

is this a fair representation of how u believe god judges one?

NotReady

08-07-2005, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Is this the logic that launched a thousand 2+2 winning poker players?

[/ QUOTE ]

Biblical logic:

because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19You believe that God is one; You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Putting them together with others these verses teach that salvation is God's gift by grace, works are the evidence. There are many other passages in the NT that say the same thing in different words with different illustrations.

NotReady

08-07-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]

just curious if NotReady and other like minds would approve of this anaolgy for what God considers when judging.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting way to phrase it though I wouldn't be dogmatic about it. The Bible does say that believers will be rewarded according to works and suggests there are some who will have their works burnt up because they were not done in faith though they will be saved. How God judges unbelievers I don't know.

bills217

08-07-2005, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i believe that this passage is interpreted as meaning that it is not possible to have faith without the good works. thus the scoundrel who believes(or has faith) will not make it to heaven because he actually does not have faith or believe.

[/ QUOTE ] Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ] so its not that "faith alone doesnt do the trick" but rather, faith alone does not exist and is impossible.
seems to me that broadening the definition of faith is just a convienant way to continue to assesrt that faith alone will save someone and avoid answering the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was too hasty in my initial agreement with your analysis of the passage. I only intended to agree with your example of the scoundrel, not your statement that faith without good works is impossible. The case of the scoundrel is one case where the passage applies, but there are other cases as well.

"So it is with faith. If it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead." -James 2:17

It appears Paul is saying that faith alone is possible, but not sufficient for salvation. The case of a Satan-worshipper, for example.

Therefore, faith AND good works are both required, which directly answers the OP.

bills217

08-07-2005, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Putting them together with others these verses teach that salvation is God's gift by grace, works are the evidence. There are many other passages in the NT that say the same thing in different words with different illustrations.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best way to describe it.

To say that works are "required" results in semantic problems...initially, you are saved only by your faith, and works are the evidence...however, if there are no works, then perhaps there was no conversion experience at all.

So in this way, I think it can be said that the works are a must along with the faith. A Satan-worshipper illustrates an example of faith without works.

PairTheBoard

08-07-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Is this the logic that launched a thousand 2+2 winning poker players?

[/ QUOTE ]

Biblical logic:

because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19You believe that God is one; You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Putting them together with others these verses teach that salvation is God's gift by grace, works are the evidence. There are many other passages in the NT that say the same thing in different words with different illustrations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was making fun of the logic of your opponents NotReady.

PairTheBoard

08-07-2005, 08:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i believe that this passage is interpreted as meaning that it is not possible to have faith without the good works. thus the scoundrel who believes(or has faith) will not make it to heaven because he actually does not have faith or believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

so its not that "faith alone doesnt do the trick" but rather, faith alone does not exist and is impossible.
seems to me that broadening the definition of faith is just a convienant way to continue to assesrt that faith alone will save someone and avoid answering the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

A -> B
A -> C
Therefore
C -> B
?

Or
A -> B
A -> C
Therefore
A+C -> B
?

Illogical right?

But

Faith -> Salvation
Faith -> Good Works
Therefore
Good Works -> Salvation
or it must be that
Faith + Good Works -> Salvation
??

Is this the logic that launched a thousand 2+2 winning poker players?

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

nobody ever asserted that faith->good works. rather many christians would assert that good works is a necessary ingredient for faith.
if u want a logic visual it would be the big circle representing good works. completely inside this circle would be a smaller one representing faith.

malorum

08-07-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Putting them together with others these verses teach that salvation is God's gift by grace, works are the evidence. There are many other passages in the NT that say the same thing in different words with different illustrations.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if you commit persistent adultery you may lose the indwelling of the holy spirit and thus fall away.
AT least according to the lutheran confessions.
So good deeds can't save you but bad deeds can finish you.