A dumb play and a missed opportunity maybe

Hey All,
Should I re-raise this. I think maybe I should have put in 100 on the flop,and fold if re-raised.I also think I should've re-raised to like 120ish pf. Anyone think I should've pushed? I don't,but was just wondering /images/graemlins/grin.gif I only post this hand because it was the first hand of the tourney,and the raiser could've been a maniac or something.

#Game No : 2479487073
***** Hand History for Game 2479487073 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:14554111 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, August 04, 22:47:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 12111 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: jhiggs17 ( $800 )
Seat 4: cacheflow26 ( $800 )
Seat 5: Qunofhrtz ( $800 )
Seat 6: Snelliest ( $800 )
Seat 10: Lbeers ( $800 )
Seat 7: ckphoto ( $800 )
Seat 9: jwag1re ( $800 )
Seat 8: johndogg9 ( $800 )
Seat 3: HERO( $800 )
Seat 1: calderone39 ( $800 )
Trny:14554111 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kd Ah ]
Qunofhrtz calls [15].
Snelliest folds.
ckphoto raises [75].
johndogg9 folds.
jwag1re folds.
Lbeers folds.
calderone39 folds.
jhiggs17 folds.
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
HERO calls [65].
cacheflow26 folds.
Qunofhrtz folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 8c, 2h ]
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
HERO checks.
ckphoto bets [95].
HERO folds.
ckphoto does not show cards.
ckphoto wins 275 chips
Game #2479500819 starts.



And my flirtation with disaster. I sort of got sucked into this hand.

#Game No : 2479655506
***** Hand History for Game 2479655506 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:14554111 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, August 04, 23:13:38 EDT 2005
Table Table 12111 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 4: cacheflow26 ( $1275 )
Seat 5: Qunofhrtz ( $1170 )
Seat 7: ckphoto ( $2545 )
Seat 9: jwag1re ( $715 )
Seat 8: johndogg9 ( $1725 )
Seat 3: HERO ( $570 )
Trny:14554111 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ts Ah ]
Qunofhrtz folds.
ckphoto folds.
johndogg9 folds.
jwag1re folds.
HERO calls [25].
cacheflow26 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, 6d, 8d ]
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
HERO bets [50].
cacheflow26 calls [50].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6h ]
HERO bets [50].
cacheflow26 raises [175].
HERO is all-In [420]

I completed because I liked the price for the hand. I don't think that was a mistake. I think my mistake was only betting 50 on the flop,should've been 100?? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
I wen't all in because I felt there was too much in the middle considering my dwindling stack, and I decided to gamble. If he had the 6, I was screwed, and if he didn't have the 6,he'd probably fold. Was this completely terrible, or just partially terrible?? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks for your help.
Shooby

[xLukex]

Hand 1 is fine. Do not get too aggressive with AK in the early levels, especially when you don't hit the flop at all.

Hand 2 I think you may get some different ideas with the preflop play, and I'm not sure a worse hand like KT or QT will call your all-in...

[Weatherhead03]

Hand 1 I would have reraised to about 150 and folded to a push.

Hand 2 Push the flop.

[xLukex]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I would have reraised to about 150 and folded to a push.

Hand 2 Push the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I greatly disagree with both of these.

First of all, reraising AK is no good when you're out of position. The best you can do on a missed flop is fold to a bet or try to steal the pot yourself....that is if you had position. I really don't like reraising here.

Hand 2, why the hell would you put all your chips into a T100 pot? I must be missing something here.

[Weatherhead03]

After relooking Hand 1 I agree with you that OOP dont reraise the AK. If in position though I would definately reraise it but thats just me. Hand 2 you have to realize that that you have really 3 options underbet which he did and I would never do with TPTK on a flush draw and straight draw board. Second you can bet the pot which can be a good option or push and at the 10+1 you will get called by flush draws straight draws and K10. Thats just my opinion though.

[xLukex]

[ QUOTE ]
After relooking Hand 1 I agree with you that OOP dont reraise the AK. If in position though I would definately reraise it but thats just me. Hand 2 you have to realize that that you have really 3 options underbet which he did and I would never do with TPTK on a flush draw and straight draw board. Second you can bet the pot which can be a good option or push and at the 10+1 you will get called by flush draws straight draws and K10. Thats just my opinion though.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what about the better hands? They're also going to call an all-in...

I think the best route is betting the pot and gaining information from villain.

[nWirb]

First hand:
I call the original raise and bet out 120 on the flop and check/fold from there unless I improve (unless you are geting the right price ofc).

Second hand:
I bet 80-90 on the flop, and push the turn.
Seeing how you only bet 50 on the flop and turn I would also push to his turn reraise.

[freemoney]

i am constantly amazed at how bad the play is, in hand 2 you have [censored] TPTK heads up and are shortstacked you want to get all in here, saying dumb [censored] like you are potting it to gain information makes no sense. what information do u gain if he calls or pushes? that he has 2 cards that do ok with that board??

[curtains]

In hand 1 I am fine with flat calling.

In hand 2 it's very clear that you should move allin preflop. Calling is just terrible, your hand is too strong headsup and the blinds mean quite a bit to you. Calling is a very very clear mistake. You need to be more aggressive when shortstacked and headsup with a very good hand.

[tigerite]

I'm glad someone else noticed this as I was about to post the same (about hand 2). You have 11bb's behind, shove it.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 2 it's very clear that you should move allin preflop. Calling is just terrible, your hand is too strong headsup and the blinds mean quite a bit to you. Calling is a very very clear mistake. You need to be more aggressive when shortstacked and headsup with a very good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Listen to this guy. He is often right, and especially about a spot like that.

Push preflop, and pick up chips in hand 2.

As for hand 1, it's fine.

[PrayingMantis]

Some really bizarre advice on this thread.

Hand 1 your call PF is fine. You missed the flop and your post flop play is basically fine without a specific read and certainly on an $11 where you don't really want to start getting aggressive OOP and push people around.

Hand 2 I can't understand how people can seriously discuss post-flop play here, where there shouldn't be any post flop if you play it right. The only case where open-limping with AT here from the SB with your stack might be correct is if you have a very good read on the BB, that he is a very aggressive player who will raise you all-in with almost anything if you limp to him. Otherwise limping here is very bad, and generally as a default it's very bad.

And also, I believe it's bad etiquette to post a HH were you leave all of your opponent's real IDs but change your own to "HERO". Either change all their IDs too, or leave it with your real ID there. I'm not the moderator here, and it doesn't really change much anyways, I just don't like it.

Sorry if I'm being too judgemental here... /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Nothing personal, just my opinion. Keep posting and improve your game.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 2 it's very clear that you should move allin preflop. Calling is just terrible, your hand is too strong headsup and the blinds mean quite a bit to you. Calling is a very very clear mistake. You need to be more aggressive when shortstacked and headsup with a very good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I can't believe you think it's terrible. I can see you thinking that calling is not your line.

For those of us who like to play this after the flop....

With that flop, I would have bet 100, (heck, I prolly don't even need a flop this good to bet 100 here). But that's only part of the real problem with your play, it's the magnitude of your turn bet. Put yourself in your opponents position. Your betting looks very weak, and you might be thrown off by a raise. I would have bet 100 on the flop. A call generally means that he hit something or has a draw. More often than not, he has the flush draw. I would have bet another 200 on the turn, and called an allin.

My point is, with the flop bet, don't try and build a pot, try and take it down. Unless building a pot is more desirable (like if you flopped 2 pair or better).


Regarding Praying Mantis' point on not changing all the names in your HH. While I would agree on higher limits on name changing can be respectful to those on the forum, I think on the lower limits, it's a little more celebrity-ish if someone else here was in the hand with him/her.

Conclusion: For a forum, that has asked to be more of a postflop forum, it's clear that no one can try and get some advice. Curtains, I would assume someone like you might be able to provide some postflop advice. I can understand that you can suggest an alternative preflop route, but you never answered the OPs question. And, if it matters, on level 3, completing the SB is highly successful at seeing a flop, so I prefer this method over antogonizing my future blinds too soon.

[lastchance]

You have 12x BB in the SB with AT. Missing this flop would really, really suck, unless you could get Villain to fold a lot of the time.

You need to take this pot down. You need to pick up some chips. A complete line may be fine, but I'd think you almost certainly have to bet t100 on pretty much every flop or check-raise all-in successfully a lot of the time for it to be more profitable than pushing AT from the SB with 12x BB.

There are times for postflop play. Moving in or folding preflop because you don't know what to do with AJ MP in L1 is clearly bad. With 12x BB, postflop play is generally not a good thing.

And I always raise 3x BB in L1 here, planning to cont-bet most flops, of course.

EDIT: 45suited is right. Why are you completing and betting t100 on the flop to let hands catch up to you? This is what you should do with hands that aren't good preflop (some of the time).

However, if Villain autofires t100 when you check to him (like most 2+2ers will do), you can come over the top and take down an extra t100 chips if you have a good read.

Still, I doubt you have that kind of read.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I can't believe you think it's terrible. I can see you thinking that calling is not your line.

For those of us who like to play this after the flop....

With that flop, I would have bet 100, (heck, I prolly don't even need a flop this good to bet 100 here). But that's only part of the real problem with your play, it's the magnitude of your turn bet. Put yourself in your opponents position. Your betting looks very weak, and you might be thrown off by a raise. I would have bet 100 on the flop. A call generally means that he hit something or has a draw. More often than not, he has the flush draw. I would have bet another 200 on the turn, and called an allin.

My point is, with the flop bet, don't try and build a pot, try and take it down. Unless building a pot is more desirable (like if you flopped 2 pair or better).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really not understanding why you don't think that pushing pre-flop is not the best play. Here's why:

After posting, hero has t545 left. There's 75 out in blinds, this represents just under 14% of his stack. Certainly very significant and worth winning. Pushing seems to be the best option by far, especially given what you are advocating: You say that hero should attempt to take the pot down on the flop. So, the times that the flop nails him, he should bet big and try to take it down. This would result in him only winning the blinds! So why not push pre-flop when he almost certainly has the best hand.

You line exposes hero to the risk of no longer having the best hand after the flop, but the times that he hits the flop, you advocate taking the pot down right there. So what has he gained by allowing the villain to see the flop? It seems to me that he is risking a lot for very little return here.

No reason to get fancy... take the pot pre-flop. It is very significant to hero's stack, hero should get his money in while almost certainly ahead. (Not to mention the fact that he would be playing the hand OOP, not that any other reasons are necessary to push pre-flop.)

Honestly, the thought of not pushing this hand pre-flop with the stacks and blinds here would never even occur to me.

[PrayingMantis]

Hey Scuba,

Discussing and improving post-flop play in many situations is certainly something that should be done on this forum. But the truth of the matter is that on SNGs there are often situations where you simply have no interest to get into a post-flop situation, even if you're a great post flop player. This one is clearly one of them, IMO. Any advantage that you might have post-flop against a particular opponent, is not comparable to the +EV-ness of raising PF. There might be of course rare cases where other options are possible (I've mentioned one of them in a previous post here), but as a default, limping is a mistake.

Of course there are better and worse lines for a flop if you somehow find yourself playing a flop in this situation for whatever reason (misclick, misread, failed trial in a fancy PF play), but if one is looking for the best way to approach this hand _as a whole_, putting the money in PF is certainly the answer.

[curtains]

I won't answer a postflop question when the OP made their largest mistake of the hand preflop. If someone isnt aware of where they went wrong, then they should become aware. To see a flop in this hand at all is just ridiculous.

Also, to have 550 chips and worry about "antagozizing the future blind", shows you have your priorities all mixed up. You are worrying about things of little importance and ignoring things of great importance while doing so. You need to make the most immediate +EV plays NOW, not strategize on how the guy next to you will feel when the blinds get higher.

[nate_king1]

One First Hand I would have Re-Raised PF. On Flop I'd push.