Thoughts on big 10/20 NL hand?

[johnnydingles]

Playing in a 10/20 NL Live game tonight. Minimum buying $500, max $3,000. I had $4,000, most had between $1000-$3000. Villain had over $30,000 and I was second on chips with my $4000. He was on a complete tear busting everyone with hands like 83 off raising all the way. Also showing a lot of bluffs thereby getting paid off lots when he hit. It was literally impossible to put him on a hand as he'd make it $300 preflop with AA or 83 offsuit just the same. He was calling thousands with gutshots and bottom pairs and hitting rivers like noone i've seen. He started with $1,000 and made $30,000 in under 2 hours.

Anyway I had AQ suited and he makes it $200, I call, we get 5 more callers. His raises got no respect and lots of callers. Flop comes A A 7, suits unimportant. Villain is first to act and bets $500. Now, i'm thinking noone has AK or they would have raised preflop, and noone was limping in with A7 at this table, and i'd expect a raise with 77 the way the table was going. I wasn't worried about the rest of the table beating me, but villain was just as likely to have A7 or 77 as he was to have 72 offsuit. He'd have played them all the same. What is my play here?

[edge]

Call and see if someone behind you wants to stay in or make a move at it. Don't fold this hand no matter what happens behind you.

If everyone else drops out, put the rest in on the turn.

[thabadguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Call and see if someone behind you wants to stay in or make a move at it. Don't fold this hand no matter what happens behind you.

If everyone else drops out, put the rest in on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is the only way to play this, a push here lets a weaker ace muck.

[runnerunner]

Call and get the rest of your money in if someone behind you raises. Push the turn.

[TonyBlair]

Trust your read, call for callers. Don't worry about the psycho. This situation is brilliant.

I take it you lost your stack.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing in a 10/20 NL Live game tonight. Minimum buying $500, max $3,000. I had $4,000, most had between $1000-$3000. Villain had over $30,000 and I was second on chips with my $4000. He was on a complete tear busting everyone with hands like 83 off raising all the way. Also showing a lot of bluffs thereby getting paid off lots when he hit. It was literally impossible to put him on a hand as he'd make it $300 preflop with AA or 83 offsuit just the same. He was calling thousands with gutshots and bottom pairs and hitting rivers like noone i've seen. He started with $1,000 and made $30,000 in under 2 hours.

Anyway I had AQ suited and he makes it $200, I call, we get 5 more callers. His raises got no respect and lots of callers. Flop comes A A 7, suits unimportant. Villain is first to act and bets $500. Now, i'm thinking noone has AK or they would have raised preflop, and noone was limping in with A7 at this table, and i'd expect a raise with 77 the way the table was going. I wasn't worried about the rest of the table beating me, but villain was just as likely to have A7 or 77 as he was to have 72 offsuit. He'd have played them all the same. What is my play here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be willing to get all your money in on this one, but there are situtations where you should fold.

For example, here is a 2-5 hand where I had AK in LMP. All stacks are about 500.

UTG limped, MP posted, I raised to 20, UTG and MP both call. The flop is AA4. UTG bets 30, MP calls, I call. Turn is a 7. UTG checks, MP bets 100, I reraise to 200, UTG goes all in, and MP thinks for a loooong time then mucks hesitantly. Now at this point I have half my stack in the pot, but a fold is defintely the right play. Both UTG and MP were decent players, so there is absolutely no way that my hand is best. There is only one other ace in play and from the way that MP mucked his hand it is obvious that he had it. So the UTG player who is all in must have 44.

I called like an idiot and of course UTG had 44.

[Leptyne]

Since you can't put Villain on a hand don't worry about him. If he's got quads then you're going to have to pay him off. I would think the best plan is to keep him in the lead and see how many others you can keep in the pot. I think Villain has shown he'll get all your stack in, so the only problem is how many will see the turn. I don't think anybody will be trying to make a hand after the turn.If no callers there will be a $2000 pot and you have $3300 left. Should be an easy push on the turn and hopefully you can find another caller.

[imported_bingobazza]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's got quads then you're going to have to pay him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then check up his sleeves and call the sheriff.

Bingo

[Andrew Fletcher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he's got quads then you're going to have to pay him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then check up his sleeves and call the sheriff.

Bingo

[/ QUOTE ]You just made me spit coffee on my keyboard.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
You just made me spit coffee on my keyboard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't say this. I see it enough on other forums. I dread the day this infiltrates 2+2.

[cero_z]

Hi johnny,

[ QUOTE ]
first to act and bets $500. Now, i'm thinking noone has AK or they would have raised preflop, and noone was limping in with A7 at this table, and i'd expect a raise with 77 the way the table was going. I wasn't worried about the rest of the table beating me, but villain was just as likely to have A7 or 77 as he was to have 72 offsuit. He'd have played them all the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh..what about AK? That's the hand you have to worry about here. Still, you have to be willing to go broke here against a very loose player who you can't read. The plan of calling and getting it all in at the next opportunity is good, though if nobody else calls, you may consider a smaller bet on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
villain was just as likely to have A7 or 77 as he was to have 72 offsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before the flop this is not quite true (an Ace in his hand is less likely because you have one), and post-flop, again, these hands are not even close to equally likely. Don't worry about them.

[Leptyne]

Yeah, I was thinking about that driving down the freeway. Did I really say that? Oh, wow! Sometime I play like that too. Quite embarrassing to show your ass like that.

[johnnydingles]

Hey Cero,
I realized it was less likely he had A7 or an ace because I had one, when I said he was just as likely to have that hand as 77, I was just referring to the fact that he could have any hand and he would bet it the same. It was less likely he would have an ace vs 77, but he could have 88 or 22 or just about any other hand and he would bet it the same way. He would always fire out again on the flop and would roughly double his preflop bet.


[ QUOTE ]
Hi johnny,

[ QUOTE ]
first to act and bets $500. Now, i'm thinking noone has AK or they would have raised preflop, and noone was limping in with A7 at this table, and i'd expect a raise with 77 the way the table was going. I wasn't worried about the rest of the table beating me, but villain was just as likely to have A7 or 77 as he was to have 72 offsuit. He'd have played them all the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh..what about AK? That's the hand you have to worry about here. Still, you have to be willing to go broke here against a very loose player who you can't read. The plan of calling and getting it all in at the next opportunity is good, though if nobody else calls, you may consider a smaller bet on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
villain was just as likely to have A7 or 77 as he was to have 72 offsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before the flop this is not quite true (an Ace in his hand is less likely because you have one), and post-flop, again, these hands are not even close to equally likely. Don't worry about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

[johnnydingles]

I ended up calling the $500 hoping for more action behind, but noone had the other Ace and everyone folded. We got it all in on the turn and of course he had 77. I never thought about folding even remotely here against this player, and don't know if I could have folded against ANY other player. Just wanted to see if there was any way I could have saved my stack.

As another example of this guys play, 3 hands later this happened. He made it $200 preflop with J3 offsuit. Flop came A 3 4. He bet $500 again on flop, called $1000 on turn when 6 hit, and rivered a 3 and took another $4000 off a guy who had AK. I left shortly after and he was up over $50,000. Thats just a crazy amount for a 10/20 NL game with $3000 max buyin. Not sure how he ended up as I've seen him up $20k before only to lose it. I love having him at the table, but on nights like this it just gets to you some. Thanks for the help.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing in a 10/20 NL Live game tonight. Minimum buying $500, max $3,000. I had $4,000, most had between $1000-$3000. Villain had over $30,000 and I was second on chips with my $4000. He was on a complete tear busting everyone with hands like 83 off raising all the way. Also showing a lot of bluffs thereby getting paid off lots when he hit. It was literally impossible to put him on a hand as he'd make it $300 preflop with AA or 83 offsuit just the same. He was calling thousands with gutshots and bottom pairs and hitting rivers like noone i've seen. He started with $1,000 and made $30,000 in under 2 hours.

Anyway I had AQ suited and he makes it $200, I call, we get 5 more callers. His raises got no respect and lots of callers. Flop comes A A 7, suits unimportant. Villain is first to act and bets $500. Now, i'm thinking noone has AK or they would have raised preflop, and noone was limping in with A7 at this table, and i'd expect a raise with 77 the way the table was going. I wasn't worried about the rest of the table beating me, but villain was just as likely to have A7 or 77 as he was to have 72 offsuit. He'd have played them all the same. What is my play here?

[/ QUOTE ]

a) Reraise preflop
b) Given that you didn't, don't be afraid of any "monsters" out there-you're facing a maniac with trips good kicker and he's betting into you. I would just call with the intention of getting him to keep betting, but if you think a raise would get him to reraise by all means-you're getting your money into the pot and there's no way around it.

[johnnydingles]

I didn't like the reraise preflop, as a lot of time if people reraised he would just push all in. Then i'd have the decision to make if I wanted to gamble AQ for $4000. I think the only value raising preflop would be if there was a chance he could fold. And the only way he would even think of it would be if I pushed, but even then he would need a hand like 72 to fold, and even that isn't certain. He just didn't like to fold at all. He busted me earlier for $2000 when I had AQ and flop was Q high. He called my $2000 reraise on the flop with K 2, no 2 on board. Of course he pinned the King on turn.

I"d much rather see the flop and have a more solid plan. Even though that isn't certain either. What does everyone else think on raising preflop?

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't like the reraise preflop, as a lot of time if people reraised he would just push all in. Then i'd have the decision to make if I wanted to gamble AQ for $4000. I think the only value raising preflop would be if there was a chance he could fold. And the only way he would even think of it would be if I pushed, but even then he would need a hand like 72 to fold, and even that isn't certain. He just didn't like to fold at all. He busted me earlier for $2000 when I had AQ and flop was Q high. He called my $2000 reraise on the flop with K 2, no 2 on board. Of course he pinned the King on turn.

I"d much rather see the flop and have a more solid plan. Even though that isn't certain either. What does everyone else think on raising preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If this guy's playing the way you describe, I'm reraising with significantly worse hands than AQ unless he is coming over the top every time. If he is, what better spot to trap somebody? Just raise him sometime w/88-AA or AQ and AK and call his raise. Either way I think you need to stand up to him preflop

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You just made me spit coffee on my keyboard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't say this. I see it enough on other forums. I dread the day this infiltrates 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]
I completely agree. I used to see this on Fark a lot and stopped reading there because of this reply 900 times. YOU OWE ME A NEW KEYBOARD HO HO HO HOOOO

[cero_z]

Hi johnny,

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't like the reraise preflop, as a lot of time if people reraised he would just push all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, but that alone isn't a good reason to not re-raise. In fact, it's a pretty decent argument for doing it. Your bigger concern in reraising should be the players behind you, I think.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only value raising preflop would be if there was a chance he could fold. And the only way he would even think of it would be if I pushed, but even then he would need a hand like 72 to fold, and even that isn't certain. He just didn't like to fold at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

This clinches it. You should've re-raised him. You take the risk of somebody picking up a monster when you're pot-committed, but you are too far ahead of his calling (or re-raising) range to not re-pop. It's an unusual situation, because you don't normally find a NL game where you can happily get 200 BBs in pre-flop with AQ, but this is that situation. Think of how often you'll be a 3 to 1 favorite! If you can't even be sure he'll throw away a rag hand, he's almost definitely coming with any Ace.

He did go on a remarkable run: 50K in a 3K max game--wow! If you really want to kill this game, you need to put all of your efforts into learning to read this player. If you do that (and it can be done, no matter how carefree or illogical he may appear to be), you will be living the dream.

And, you need to loosen up and gamble with him when you have the best of it. If you make it a habit of pushing with AQ and 88 when he raises big, you can push for big overbets with the nuts (pre- and post-flop) and always get called. You get a fairly +EV situation sometimes, and a tremendously +EV spot other times. Obviously, though, you can't do this if you just have one buy-in in this game. It sounds like you may have been playing with scared money a little bit. Good luck.

[Matt Flynn]

If you've got 6-8 players behind you you could argue/muddle for a preflop call, but I would've made it $600. Call with lesser pairs, raise with big aces and big pairs. Then on that flop you know it's just fate.

In general, I do not let a guy like that push me around. But, I also try not to make the mistake of getting too loose myself. 9- or 10-handed it is the table's job to handle him, not yours. When you play, you should have a serious hand unless the positions are such that you are effectively playing shorthanded. Even then you should lean heavily towards high card equity.

Next time you get seven players in preflop coldcalling $200 in a 10-20 game, please call me.

Matt

[cero_z]

Hi Matt,

[ QUOTE ]
Next time you get seven players in preflop coldcalling $200 in a 10-20 game, please call me.


[/ QUOTE ]

You were at Bellagio during the Series. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[johnnydingles]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't like the reraise preflop, as a lot of time if people reraised he would just push all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, but that alone isn't a good reason to not re-raise. In fact, it's a pretty decent argument for doing it. Your bigger concern in reraising should be the players behind you, I think.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only value raising preflop would be if there was a chance he could fold. And the only way he would even think of it would be if I pushed, but even then he would need a hand like 72 to fold, and even that isn't certain. He just didn't like to fold at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

This clinches it. You should've re-raised him. You take the risk of somebody picking up a monster when you're pot-committed, but you are too far ahead of his calling (or re-raising) range to not re-pop. It's an unusual situation, because you don't normally find a NL game where you can happily get 200 BBs in pre-flop with AQ, but this is that situation. Think of how often you'll be a 3 to 1 favorite! If you can't even be sure he'll throw away a rag hand, he's almost definitely coming with any Ace.

He did go on a remarkable run: 50K in a 3K max game--wow! If you really want to kill this game, you need to put all of your efforts into learning to read this player. If you do that (and it can be done, no matter how carefree or illogical he may appear to be), you will be living the dream.

And, you need to loosen up and gamble with him when you have the best of it. If you make it a habit of pushing with AQ and 88 when he raises big, you can push for big overbets with the nuts (pre- and post-flop) and always get called. You get a fairly +EV situation sometimes, and a tremendously +EV spot other times. Obviously, though, you can't do this if you just have one buy-in in this game. It sounds like you may have been playing with scared money a little bit. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Cero,
Thanks for the replies. i see your argument for reraising preflop now. Part of the problem was that I was UTG+1 and had 6 players behind me. I felt that was too many players and being out of position too much.
For the buyin, I usually buy in for $1500-$3000 depending on the players and how the game is. I always have at least 6 or 7 buyins, sometimes more. It wasn't that I didn't want to gamble with him with AQ preflop, it was that the $4000 still covered the rest of the table it enabled me to push them around a bit. Also pushing preflop, he'd be calling with any pair, where he is a small favorite, and also calling with almost any 2 cards, which even then i'm only 60-40 favorite or so. The way I've played this player in the past was to do as I did yesterday and call preflop and wait until I have a lot bigger edge. It was just too easy to get your money all in against him as a big favorite, that there was no need to gamble. Only problem was he was outdrawing everyone like crazy. I usually love when he has tons of chips as eventually he starts missing and you can clean up. yesterday was just a bad day for it.

Not sure if my way i've been playing him so far is the best way, but it's worked well up until now, even despite the couple losses yesterday. But I'm also posting to learn and see what better ways there are. Appreciate all the help thus far. Think i'll at least tweak my strategy some next weekend.

[cero_z]

Hi johnny,

[ QUOTE ]
Also pushing preflop, he'd be calling with any pair, where he is a small favorite, and also calling with almost any 2 cards, which even then i'm only 60-40 favorite or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out a sim/enumeration program (Andrew Prock's Pokerstove is my favorite) where you can run out AQs vs. a range of hands. Whatever you decide is this guy's exact range, I think you'll see that you're about 65% to win. That's as good as flopping an overpair and getting it all in vs. his flush draw.

Your point about maintaining a nice stack with which to dominate the rest of the table is duly noted. I kind of assumed that with the run this guy was on, he'd be constantly interfering with you doing that. There's nothing wrong with waiting for big hand with which to lay the smackdown on him; I was just saying that if you can afford to mix it up with him, you will create a VERY profitable situation for yourself, in addition to whatever else you have going.

[johnnydingles]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi johnny,

[ QUOTE ]
Also pushing preflop, he'd be calling with any pair, where he is a small favorite, and also calling with almost any 2 cards, which even then i'm only 60-40 favorite or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out a sim/enumeration program (Andrew Prock's Pokerstove is my favorite) where you can run out AQs vs. a range of hands. Whatever you decide is this guy's exact range, I think you'll see that you're about 65% to win. That's as good as flopping an overpair and getting it all in vs. his flush draw.

Your point about maintaining a nice stack with which to dominate the rest of the table is duly noted. I kind of assumed that with the run this guy was on, he'd be constantly interfering with you doing that. There's nothing wrong with waiting for big hand with which to lay the smackdown on him; I was just saying that if you can afford to mix it up with him, you will create a VERY profitable situation for yourself, in addition to whatever else you have going.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Cero,
He wasn't interferring too much with me pushing the rest of the table around. The few hands he didn't play was when I was doing it. Granted I didn't get a lot of chances, but I made the most of the ones I did. I see what you're saying about mixing it up more with him. When I've played him in the past that's what i've done more. He was just too on fire that night. When you said I might have had scared money, you were probably a little right. But it wasn't fear of going broke, it was fear of him outdrawing me, lol. /images/graemlins/wink.gif