10/20, betting a scary river and then calling a river raise [Archive]

View Full Version : 10/20, betting a scary river and then calling a river raise

bds

08-01-2005, 05:05 PM

There have been threads recently that dealt with 2 concepts. One is to keep betting even if a scare card comes (a card that makes a flush, etc). The other was a post responding to the question when should you fold to a river raise in 10/20, and the answer given was Never. I just played this hand and thought it illustrated both points well. Villan in the hand is 31/20 with aggression factors of 2 on the flop, 3 on the turn and 3 on the river.

I've purposely left the results in this particular post.
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ts Ah (full house, aces full of tens).
BB has Ks 9h (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 9 BB.

ISF

08-01-2005, 05:09 PM

I assume you posted the wrong hand? If not then I cant see not threebeting this river.

DMBFan23

08-01-2005, 05:12 PM

dude you have a boat

JrJordan

08-01-2005, 05:21 PM

I think this hand demonstrates how to be weak tight vs. a tricky aggressive player when you have a great hand. What hand are you afraid of? QQ, and AQ will both 3-bet you PF if they truly are an aggressive TAG. If not preflop, then surely by the flop or turn you'd hear something. I think you'll see Kd 10 times for every time you see one of the two hands that beat you (yes I know the straight flush possibility, but I'm not going to even count it in this scenario).

ggbman

08-01-2005, 05:23 PM

You have a boar, 3 bet.

RunDownHouse

08-01-2005, 05:27 PM

Boar, I like that.

I guess this post was a form of self-punishment for being a gaping hatchet wound?

Entity

08-01-2005, 05:27 PM

This thread is an excellent lesson in boardreading. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

Surfbullet

08-01-2005, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dude you have a boat

[/ QUOTE ]

and it might be a 3bet vs the right player with 2 pair.

Surf

krishanleong

08-01-2005, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You have a boar, 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD

Krishan

bds

08-01-2005, 07:54 PM

LOL. Well, yes I know I have a boat. The point of the post was to show what can happen if you fold to a river raise after the 4 flush shows up on the board. The guy who raised the river had nothing at all and was clearly trying to bluff me off the pot because of the flush possibility. He had been making plays for some time at the table, and I wanted to see what he had. He was either getting very lucky with his cards, or he was bluffing at lots of pots. This was my first reasonable opportunity to see a showdown against him. Hence, I called his 3 bet to be sure of a showdown. I think the information I gleaned here was worth not reraising the river. I've got a note on this player now. Everyone thinks that is a foolish choice?

JrJordan

08-01-2005, 08:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
LOL. Well, yes I know I have a boat. The point of the post was to show what can happen if you fold to a river raise after the 4 flush shows up on the board. The guy who raised the river had nothing at all and was clearly trying to bluff me off the pot because of the flush possibility. He had been making plays for some time at the table, and I wanted to see what he had. He was either getting very lucky with his cards, or he was bluffing at lots of pots. This was my first reasonable opportunity to see a showdown against him. Hence, I called his 3 bet to be sure of a showdown. I think the information I gleaned here was worth not reraising the river. I've got a note on this player now. Everyone thinks that is a foolish choice?

[/ QUOTE ]

In short... yes.

ggbman

08-01-2005, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have a boar, 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i'm not gonna spellcheck replys for hands like this one where there is not even really need for it to be posted. Still, i should be able to get out 1 sentence replys without mistakes. Maybe they'll teach me that in college.

partygirluk

08-01-2005, 08:14 PM

You will have a hard time convincing people you actually knew you had a boat, seeing as you failed to 3 bet the river. You will get an extra bet or two very often here and doing so is worth much much more than any information you gleam. Also, bear in mind that any time he folds to your 3 bet you know he was on a bluff as not many players will take a raise/fold line here with a decent hand.

RunDownHouse

08-01-2005, 09:27 PM

I hope that seeing his cards - when, as was noted, you would have known he was bluffing when he folded - was worth the $20.

bds

08-01-2005, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You will have a hard time convincing people you actually knew you had a boat, seeing as you failed to 3 bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm wounded /images/graemlins/frown.gif My intention wasn't to convince you of whether I read the board correctly or not. It was to reinforce what I thought were much more important lessons that I gleaned from a recent series of posts.

Those lessons were:

1. Keep betting even if a scare card comes, especially with few players in the pot

AND

2. Don't often fold to a river raise. The post actually said to never fold to a river raise, but there are players whose raise on the river I would respect enough to fold to on a similar board when I have less of a hand.

These are two lessons that just recently came crystal clear to me. They are lessons I should have learned a long time ago, but I don't digest and incorporate all that I read here.

[ QUOTE ]
I hope that seeing his cards - when, as was noted, you would have known he was bluffing when he folded - was worth the $20.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I really don't think I left any money on the table as it turned out. I agree a 3 bet would likely have gotten called if he actually had a flush. As it turned out, though, I can't see him calling. Seems that one of two things would have happened. He might have folded to my 3 bet, in which case I would not have known whether he raised a small flush or some other hand of moderate strength or whether he raised as a pure bluff. The other possibility is he might have capped the river; I think that is less likely after I 3-bet the river.

Well I've beat this to death now, so I think I'll go play some cards and try not to make any more plays that are clearly (according to folks whose opinion I truly respect) -EV. Good luck at the tables.

ctv1116

08-01-2005, 10:19 PM

OK, when he folds his hand, you know he was bluffing. But the times he's got the King of dimanonds, or even the jack of diamonds, you get an extra bet. I'm not quite sure whether there's ever a situation where information is worth an extra bet.

RunDownHouse

08-01-2005, 10:21 PM

I really do appreciate the post. It was definitely amusing and also informative. And I agree that it wasn't a 1BB mistake, since any of his hands that fell within the "bluff" range would fold to a 3bet. But there's a lot of hands he would call with (would a 10/20 player really fold a flush to a 3bet?), a couple he would cap with, and you're ahead of nearly all of them.

But you know all that. Out of curiousity, did it show his cards to the table? How did/would that impact the rest of the session?

bds

08-01-2005, 11:40 PM

Yes, I saw his cards. I don't remember if he chose to show them or if Playerview showed them. This impacted the rest of the session by giving me less concern about his raises and I called down with hands that I would have folded to a different players raises. He was not quite as aggressive with his raises after that point. The real benefit to the knowledge, I think, comes next time I encounter him when I remember him and he does not remember me.

stillbr

08-02-2005, 12:00 AM

kiddo

08-02-2005, 04:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You will get an extra bet or two very often here and doing so is worth much much more than any information you gleam. Also, bear in mind that any time he folds to your 3 bet you know he was on a bluff as not many players will take a raise/fold line here with a decent hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, you dont need a showdown to understand he did a move without a flush because if he is decent he will raise with a bluff or a good flush, not a weak flush. If he is bad enough to raise with weak flush in this spot he will also call with it if u 3bet.

Normally he is not raising as a bluff in this spot and if he got nutflush maybe 4bet so u leave close to 1BB on table when u call. (Maybe this is stupid but I often wait 2-3 sec before 3betting this river, pretending I think abot what to do). 1BB is a big price for getting information, even for a good player its 30 min playing at a table. There are normally chepaer way to get same info.

I agree that this hand shows that u shouldnt fold to easily on river. But does it show that u should normally bet when flush hits? Normally he will bluff more often if u check then if u bet, but also, if u check he will often check a worse hand behind, that he otherwise would have called with.

If I got a not so great hand, like middle pair, and someone bets all the way and 4flush hits river I dont like it, but I almost always call because there is such a big chance that he doesnt have flush so if it was right to call from the start its right to call now.

Jeff W

08-02-2005, 04:44 AM

WTF. You have the 3rd nuts.

Monty Cantsin

08-02-2005, 05:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this hand demonstrates how to be weak tight vs. a tricky aggressive player when you have a great hand. What hand are you afraid of? QQ, and AQ will both 3-bet you PF...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this response demonstrates how easy it is to misread the board. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

/mc

jdock99

08-02-2005, 06:36 AM

$5/$10 Texas Hold'em - Sunday, July 31, 02:08:37 EDT 2005
Table Table 10734 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: cumgesum ( $848.82 )
Seat 2: ToddShippen ( $183.28 )
Seat 3: vtach ( $154.33 )
Seat 4: HERO ( $270 )
Seat 5: halfmonkey10 ( $511 )
Seat 6: lootcake7 ( $179 )
halfmonkey10 posts small blind [$2].
lootcake7 posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ As Ts ]
>You have options at Table 11322 (6 max) Table!.
cumgesum folds.
>You have options at Table 11322 (6 max) Table!.
ToddShippen calls [$5].
vtach folds.
HERO raises [$10].
halfmonkey10 calls [$8].
>You have options at Table 11322 (6 max) Table!.
lootcake7 calls [$5].
ToddShippen calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, Ah, Ac ]
halfmonkey10 checks.
lootcake7 checks.
ToddShippen checks.
HERO bets [$5].
halfmonkey10 folds.
lootcake7 folds.
>You have options at Table 39810 (6 max) Table!.
ToddShippen calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Td ]
ToddShippen bets [$10].
>You have options at Table 11322 (6 max) Table!.
HERO raises [$20].
>You have options at Table 39810 (6 max) Table!.
ToddShippen raises [$20].
>You have options at Table 11343 (6 max) Table!.
HERO raises [$20].
ToddShippen calls [$10].
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
>You have options at Table 11343 (6 max) Table!.
ToddShippen bets [$10].
HERO raises [$20].
ToddShippen raises [$20].
>You have options at Table 39810 (6 max) Table!.
>You have options at Table 11343 (6 max) Table!.
HERO raises [$20].
ToddShippen calls [$10].
HERO shows [ As, Ts ] a full house, Aces full of tens.
ToddShippen doesn't show [ Jc, Th ] two pairs, aces and tens.
HERO wins $208 from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of tens.

p.s.- I tried to use the bisonbison hand converter but it wasn't working.

Tropex

08-02-2005, 07:19 AM

If you can use pokerhand.org with this format, it has direct "View Forum Layout" button that converts it to format that can be displayed here. Try it out /images/graemlins/wink.gif