I can't believe this (not much content)

[Ghazban]

Party 1/2, villain and I each have ~200.

I open for $8 with JJ in LMP, folded to villain who makes it $20 in SB. He's wicked tight (7/4) so I'm pretty sure I'm behind and am calling for set value.

Flop comes QJ7 with 2 clubs, he checks, I bet $25. He types in the chat box:
[ QUOTE ]
QQ?
I have KK
nh

[/ QUOTE ]
and then folds

Is anybody really this weak-tight? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ryanghall]

Who is the Villain?

[ QUOTE ]
Party 1/2, villain and I each have ~200.

I open for $8 with JJ in LMP, folded to villain who makes it $20 in SB. He's wicked tight (7/4) so I'm pretty sure I'm behind and am calling for set value.

Flop comes QJ7 with 2 clubs, he checks, I bet $25. He types in the chat box:
[ QUOTE ]
QQ?
I have KK
nh

[/ QUOTE ]
and then folds

Is anybody really this weak-tight? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe he checked the flop and then folded. I would have at least bet out and then folded to a raise.

It was an incredible play though. Call him weak tight or whatever you want, but that was an awesome play. He probably thought that for you to raise and then call his reraise, you must have had queens or jacks. He probably eliminated aces b/c you didn't reraise preflop. A-K would seem unlikely since he had kings, and you wouldn't figure to call his reraise with A-Q. Looks like a smart guy to me... Also, your $25 bet into a $40 pot looks to me like it's begging to get a call. I like the idea of betting the full pot there, especially after he shows weakness by checking the full bet looks like you might be trying to buy it. Make him think about it at least.

Though I do lead that flop.

[jkkkk]

Well if he knows how you play based on his perceived image, its perfect. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[JustToast]

Wow. How would he figure you didnt hold 88 or 66 or TT etc. though as I expect you would play them the same... no?

On second thought, of course you wouldnt if he knows you had to put him on a huge hand you would never lead the flop without a set since he knows you know he's got a big hand.

Hmm... If he bets and you call he knows he's trapped in this case. Well, you can always use this against him later with rags now to steal.

[Ghazban]

Incredibly play? I don't think so. I'm betting an enormous range of hands when he checks to me, not only things that can beat KK. I thought his check was a bit fishy and felt it was likely he had QQ and was going to checkraise me (in which case, I was going to fold).

A barely-more-than-minimum preflop reraise when I have position is not going to get me to fold anything.

[Komodo]

He had put you on a big pocket. How many pockets does he beat with this board?

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
He had put you on a big pocket

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because he's weak/tight. If he didn't suck at poker, he would know Ghaz opens much more than JJ+ in LMP.

[Komodo]

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He had put you on a big pocket

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because he's weak/tight. If he didn't suck at poker, he would know Ghaz opens much more than JJ+ in LMP.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didnt just raise preflop, he called a significant reraise too.

[xorbie]

It's 10% of his stack, with position, against KK/AA 100% of the time, not to mention there's already $28 in the pot. I call with any suited connector or pocket pair here.

[swolfe]

what's your PFR? not that i'd make the same play, but if you're a tight raiser, then there's not much he's beating that you'd raise and call a reraise with. AK is less likely because he has two of the Ks.

[Komodo]

And what is his plan for turn and river? Its very expensive to call down. Either he has to fold here, or reraise to find out for sure.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
And what is his plan for turn and river? Its very expensive to call down. Either he has to fold here, or bet to find out for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
what's your PFR? not that i'd make the same play, but if you're a tight raiser, then there's not much he's beating that you'd raise and call a reraise with. AK is less likely because he has two of the Ks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm about 7% in full ring, though he might have a different perspective in the ~250 hands we've played together (honestly, I don't recall exactly which 250 hands those were so I don't know what my PFR in that sample size is).

People seem to be saying that my calling of the reraise indicates something about the quality of my hand. Do you guys (not just you, swolfe) really fold for $12 into a $30 pot here? (in position, HU, well-defined villain hand, plenty of money still to bet, etc.)

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
People seem to be saying that my calling of the reraise indicates something about the quality of my hand. Do you guys (not just you, swolfe) really fold for $12 into a $30 pot here? (in position, HU, well-defined villain hand, plenty of money still to bet, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

never (unless i had AQ), but it's more a question of what you open with. even at 7% it's most likely that you're opening with "a real hand". i'm sure you throw in the occassional mid-PP or SC, but generally when you raise it's TT-AA/AK/AQ. against that range on this flop, he's not in very good shape.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys (not just you, swolfe) really fold for $12 into a $30 pot here? (in position, HU, well-defined villain hand, plenty of money still to bet, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

With decent stack sizes, I call $12 into $30 with almost any two cards against villain's obvious AA/KK. I'm certainly in this pot with more hands than JJ/QQ.

That being said... I'm talking about a standard unknown opponent. If the opponent isn't going to overplay his hand at all, then the implied odds are pretty low and useless, and then you should fold.

Also -- I'm much more inclined to call here if I'm going to be playing with the same opponents for awhile. If they're not going to start to get scared of my Shania from this hand, then it's also less valuable IMO.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
even at 7% it's most likely that you're opening with "a real hand". i'm sure you throw in the occassional mid-PP or SC, but generally when you raise it's TT-AA/AK/AQ. against that range on this flop, he's not in very good shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

This explains very well exactly why I typically open 10-12% of hands at full ring.

I've been told so many times in live games that my opponents have no idea what I have when the flop comes out, because 'you'll raise with anything'! This is infinitely valuable when your opponents will refuse to play back at you.

EDIT: Note that I don't even think 10-12% is uber-loose. Show down a couple of 86s hands in big pots and you'll get paid off when the QJx flops.

[djoyce003]

he folded AK....just wanted to save face by saying KK. If he's that weak/tight to fold KK here then he's at least easy to play against.

[5hole]

For arguments sake if he does put you on a range of hands would he re-raise you with AK?

[Ghazban]

7% is my aggregate number. First in from mid or late position, I'm sure its much higher. I've been lurking more in mid-high lately and noticing how little open limping there is in those games. As a result, I'm open limping a lot less, folding some hands in LP I used to limp with and openraising others (specific hands are, of course, highly dependent on who the blinds are and how the people between me and the button play). First in from LMP at this table, I could have just about anything playable (suited connector, suited one-gapper, any pair, suited ace, AKo-QJo). Having only been at the table a few orbits, though, the opponents may not have identified this.

[ QUOTE ]
he folded AK....just wanted to save face by saying KK. If he's that weak/tight to fold KK here then he's at least easy to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is weak/tight, he's not reraising to $20 OOP. He may have had A-K and figured Hero's raise was a position raise and was trying to take advantage of that. But if that was the case, I would think he would make it more like $24 or more, esp. OOP. It sure feels like aces or kings to me. If it was, you just have to give him a lot of credit and stop attacking his play. He got Hero to put 20 into the pot preflop as a huge underdog, then when he was down to a 2 outer, he didn't put one more penny into the pot. If he did have kings, he made an incredible play.

[AceHiStation]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought his check was a bit fishy and felt it was likely he had QQ and was going to checkraise me (in which case, I was going to fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this is a joke? If he has QQ, he's getting paid 7 days a week and twice on Sundays. If you fold here you're losing incredible value from aggresive AQ, flush draw, KK, and AA. He didn't have KK, probably AK as another poster said.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought his check was a bit fishy and felt it was likely he had QQ and was going to checkraise me (in which case, I was going to fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this is a joke? If he has QQ, he's getting paid 7 days a week and twice on Sundays. If you fold here you're losing incredible value from aggresive AQ, flush draw, KK, and AA. He didn't have KK, probably AK as another poster said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a joke. An extremely tight player reraising out of position and then checkraising this flop is going to be QQ pretty close to 100% of the time.

[amoeba]

he read you like a book.

I don't think his flop fold is that tight.

you wouldn't call that reraise with AQ or AJ and you wouldn't lead in to him with AK.

[BigF]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought his check was a bit fishy and felt it was likely he had QQ and was going to checkraise me (in which case, I was going to fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

You are joking, right? You realized his PF reraise meant big pp and you called with JJ for set value. You flopped a set and you were going to fold to a check raise???? Just because it's not top set? No offense but that's weak tight.

If QJ7 is a "scary flop" for your JJ, so is KJ7, AJ7. Dude...

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
he read you like a book.

I don't think his flop fold is that tight.

you wouldn't call that reraise with AQ or AJ and you wouldn't lead in to him with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on his stats though Ghaz would probably have called PF with pretty much any PP and should have lead into him with those as well.

Edit: I guess "lead into" is wrong terminology here since he's in position, but regardless.

[tripdad]

yes, some people are that weak tight.

a few weeks ago, i was in a live $2/5 n/l game at a casino. there are 2 limpers to the button, who raised to $30. the only call...and a hesitant call at that...was the CO in the hand. before the flop hits, the CO holds his cards out over the table, and tells the dealer, "if the flop misses me, i'm done."

the flop: A Q rag.

the CO says to the dealer, "that's not exactly the flop i wanted to see."

CO checks. button pushes about $150 into the $75 pot. the CO mucks pocket Queens face up. the button then shows his pocket Aces to the table.

absolutely true story.

cheers!

[theben]

thats a terrible flop for KK in a reraise against EP raiser pot

[wtfsvi]

What are you betting this flop with that KK beats? You won't call preflop with any non-QQ hand that contains a queen, given his table image you'll never lead a draw and you probably won't lead a total miss since you think he's going for a check raise.

I'm not saying he thought it through, but the laydown is not so horrible, is it?

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you betting this flop with that KK beats? You won't call preflop with any non-QQ hand that contains a queen,

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I will--look at how small the reraise was

[ QUOTE ]
given his table image you'll never lead a draw and you probably won't lead a total miss since you think he's going for a check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure I will. If I have a big draw and get checkminraised, I get to push. If I have a weaker draw, I can call a checkminraise or fold to a bigger checkraise. I'm not losing sleep over folding a draw in this spot when I've forced him to announce that he has a set.

[wtfsvi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
What are you betting this flop with that KK beats? You won't call preflop with any non-QQ hand that contains a queen,

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I will--look at how small the reraise was

[/ QUOTE ] I probably won't, but ok. We might both be right in our actions. (Since you probably suck a bit less than me postflop. There's just something about getting away from top two pair on the flop that I have big problems with, so I prefer not putting myself in a situation where I have to do it.)


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given his table image you'll never lead a draw and you probably won't lead a total miss since you think he's going for a check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure I will. If I have a big draw and get checkminraised, I get to push. If I have a weaker draw, I can call a checkminraise or fold to a bigger checkraise. I'm not losing sleep over folding a draw in this spot when I've forced him to announce that he has a set.

[/ QUOTE ] Why would you bet a draw when he offers you a free card and your read is that he has either a set or an overpair? EDIT: And why the hell would you push if you got check-minraised, and thus were 90% certain he had a set?

[Ghazban]

With a big draw, I'm a favorite over an overpair and not in terrible shape against a set. I'm almost always happy to get the money in on the flop even if villain turns over a set because of the fantastic advertising value. In this game, people see you play a draw real fast once and they pay off all your sets when they're drawing almost dead. They're aware enough to recognize someone might play a draw very aggressively but not always aware enough to realize that a big draw can be a favorite over one pair. Then selective memory causes them to call next time with bottom pair when I've got top set because they think I'm a draw-chasing maniac.

For a smaller draw (i.e. one that will have to fold to a big checkraise), I'll take the free card most of the time but will bet the flop sometimes, too. If he folds AK/TT to my T9/KT (OESD), betting my weak draw doesn't look so stupid any more, right?

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
he folded AK....just wanted to save face by saying KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget he's a poker player........

[Komodo]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
It's 10% of his stack, with position, against KK/AA 100% of the time, not to mention there's already $28 in the pot. I call with any suited connector or pocket pair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but do you raise full pot with a small pocket or a suited connected after the flop?

[jonoo]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, some people are that weak tight.

a few weeks ago, i was in a live $2/5 n/l game at a casino. there are 2 limpers to the button, who raised to $30. the only call...and a hesitant call at that...was the CO in the hand. before the flop hits, the CO holds his cards out over the table, and tells the dealer, "if the flop misses me, i'm done."

the flop: A Q rag.

the CO says to the dealer, "that's not exactly the flop i wanted to see."

CO checks. button pushes about $150 into the $75 pot. the CO mucks pocket Queens face up. the button then shows his pocket Aces to the table.

absolutely true story.

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]
where was that at?