Turn...

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls...

Like it?

Krishan

[Willluck]

FPS? The players behind may have improved, plus it's pretty clear that one of them is also on a flush draw. I think you have to raise this here, unless someone behind you is agressive enough to raise a ace, but even then...
Edit: confusion with pf action, got rid of "weak" describing ace.
Reedit: anyone 3-bet pf?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
plus it's pretty clear that one of them is also on a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a good assumption.

[ QUOTE ]
unless someone behind you is agressive enough to raise a ace,

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand range the preflop raiser for me.

Krishan

[Stack]

Flop...I would bet and hope pfr raises.

Not having done that, call {edit: the turn}I guess

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop...I would bet and hope pfr raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate it. Why would I do that?

Krishan

[JrJordan]

That's such a great turn card on so many levels. Smooth call lets an aggressive MP raise his Ax hand, you get to trap a bazillion callers when you raise, and all is right with the world. Having limped along on the flop, this is exactly how I'd play it.

That being said, I'd probably get impatient and spring the trap early with a flop 3-bet after SB raises. If they're passive enough, you can get at least 2 of the 3 to go to the turn with you for 3-bets, and perhaps induce a cap from MP if he has an overpair.

[Catt]

I don't play 10/20, but I might prefer just raising the turn here. If MP has a big A (auto-betting the flop) he might 3-bet; if he does not, he may fold to SB's bet whether you raise or not or just call along (I suspect he folds without a FD). Button is curious in that he's CCing PF and then calling one at a time on the flop. SB looks pretty happy with his hand, and unless he has 78 you're in a good spot to extract some bets here. If a spade falls on the river, there's not only a chance you're beat, but a significant chance you won't have an opportunity to go multiple bets with the winning hand - and any FD is calling 2 here anyway. I'd come out of my shell and show some aggression here on the turn and kick myself if I somehow learn that MP would have raised allowing me to either 3-bet or cap.

I'd especially prefer raising the turn if your opponents don't know you and you've been at the table a short time -- your raise would look like a goof with an A who now thinks he's best.

[tizim]

Look at the board and pot size. You're giving players beautiful odds/implied odds to draw to any a 7 or 9 or spade.

I generally just 3-bet the flop, but calling is good too to let MP draw to overcards or 3-bet with an overpair.

If you call the flop, though, you have to raise the turn. Even if he has an Ace, he won't necessarily raise, and he often doesn't even have the ace. Letting only 1 BB go in on this turn with so many draws, such a big pot, and such a strong hand is terrible. If he has an A, you'll still get a guaranteed 2 bets out of him anyway.

Basically, you're risking way too much on the turn to win just a few more bets on the parlay that he a) has an ace and b) will raise with it, and c) he won't 3-bet it.

[weevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Flop...I would bet and hope pfr raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate it. Why would I do that?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your lack of player reads, that's a good question. If you pay attention though, maybe you'll find out that MP likes to auto bet/raise the flop after raising PF. Then you'll get over trying to build a huge pot with a somewhat vulnerable hand 4way, and worry more about winning the hand, and make the other two face 2 cold, and get a cr in on the turn.

Or maybe you've noticed that he slowplays or is somewhat passive when someone donks him on the flop, and you'll wait until the turn to cr most cards and get two big bets from everyone.

These are flop thoughts btw, and since you're worried about the turn given the way you played the flop, I'm a big fan of giving people 10:1 immediate, and greater implied, letting all gutshots and flush draws call profitably, and having SB possibly check the river not letting us get a raise in and having everyone fold their missed draws. This is probably the line that makes the least and risks the most imo.

[Willluck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
plus it's pretty clear that one of them is also on a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a good assumption.


[/ QUOTE ]
maybe not a flush draw, but a draw nontheless, and you're giving him pretty great odds to call with his gutter if MP doesn't raise.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
unless someone behind you is agressive enough to raise a ace,

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand range the preflop raiser for me.


[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to take my previous statement back, I think I wrote that still thinking SB raised pf. I think you have to raise though, cuz MP will call with an ace and maybe raise.
edit: I usually 3 bet this hand PF too, how is that?

[Alobar]

It will look good all the times MP raises his big ace. You will look like a tard all the times it just gets called, or folded.

So the question is, how often will he have a big ace, and how often will he raise it?

Me I just go ahead and raise, if hes got a big ace, let him call 2 with it, and make the button call 2 for sure. I think in the long run you are going to get alot more with this line.

[tolbiny]

"Hand range the preflop raiser for me."

HIs hand range is still whatever he raised with preflop. He can have any two overcards (ace or no ace) - the non ace ones are folding and you miss your chance at raising the sb - the Ace ones may or may not raise again missing out on a raise- but many opponents will call two cold there with a strong ace.
He can also have an overpair that he decided to wait till the turn to raise- and now he will just call down/fold (likely fold if its two bets to him).
And if he calls/folds and the sb had a flopped set or two paired that he wants to three bet you will look like a tard.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
If you pay attention ...
Then you'll get over...
I'm a big fan of giving people 10:1...


[/ QUOTE ]

Such agressive language. When I say I hate something, I don't mean I hate you. I just hate the line you suggested. I think your a very nice poster.

[ QUOTE ]
letting all gutshots and flush draws call profitably,

[/ QUOTE ]

For someone to have a gutshot he has to have a 8 or 7. We can safely rule out the PFR and the SB. So there is only one person we have to worry about. And his range of hands is quite large. He could be drawing dead with a pp or a he may think he has a 5 outer to 2 pair or trips. When you think range of hands, you can't assume the worse.

Basically I don't care about hand protection. Flushes will always draw, open enders will always draw, and this board doesn't have enough gutshots for me to care. If the board was QJ9, yeah I play this hand differently.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
"Hand range the preflop raiser for me."

HIs hand range is still whatever he raised with preflop. He can have any two overcards (ace or no ace) - the non ace ones are folding and you miss your chance at raising the sb - the Ace ones may or may not raise again missing out on a raise- but many opponents will call two cold there with a strong ace.
He can also have an overpair that he decided to wait till the turn to raise- and now he will just call down/fold (likely fold if its two bets to him).
And if he calls/folds and the sb had a flopped set or two paired that he wants to three bet you will look like a tard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if I call an overpair is very likely to raise. I think his range includes a lot of aces and a lot of big pairs and a couple of KQ,KJ,QJ hands that he will fold. I think if I call, this turn get raised a lot.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

maybe not a flush draw, but a draw nontheless, and you're giving him pretty great odds to call with his gutter if MP doesn't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only hand that he could have that benefits from a raise is a gutshot. Anything else is either drawing dead or calling anyway. (I know charging live draws is good too)

Krishan

[weevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you pay attention ...
Then you'll get over...
I'm a big fan of giving people 10:1...


[/ QUOTE ]

Such agressive language. When I say I hate something, I don't mean I hate you. I just hate the line you suggested. I think your a very nice poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't meant to be agressive. I just don't see the point in posting a hand like this without reads, unless that's the specific reason you're posting (i.e., in general, what is the best line given a normal range of players). And thanks for calling me a nice poster. I got a goosebump. Or maybe that's a wart. Teehee.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
letting all gutshots and flush draws call profitably,

[/ QUOTE ]

For someone to have a gutshot he has to have a 8 or 7. We can safely rule out the PFR and the SB. So there is only one person we have to worry about. And his range of hands is quite large. He could be drawing dead with a pp or a he may think he has a 5 outer to 2 pair or trips. When you think range of hands, you can't assume the worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since we don't know what the SB and MP are capable of playing in these positions, I don't see how we can rule them out.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically I don't care about hand protection. Flushes will always draw, open enders will always draw, and this board doesn't have enough gutshots for me to care. If the board was QJ9, yeah I play this hand differently.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't want to worry about hand protection, that's your call.. but the downsides to this passive line are: we make the least when we're ahead, and let people draw out for cheap. Whereas, if we raise, we ensure some kind of protection for our hand, and often get the added benefit of say, MP coming alive and 3betting a strong ace or somesuch, allowing us to get a capped turn with most times the best hand. FPS has its place and time, this isn't one imo. Hugs and kisses!

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]


I think if I call an overpair is very likely to raise. I think his range includes a lot of aces and a lot of big pairs and a couple of KQ,KJ,QJ hands that he will fold. I think if I call, this turn get raised a lot.



[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you have a read that hes aggresive, I think you are way over estimating the amount of times this turn gets raised. from a hand range standpoint there are more hands that arent going to be raising this turn, than are raising them. I also disagree that an overpair is raising this turn. KK-TT just puckered up once that ace fell. So you are hoping he has one of the fewer ranges of hands that has an ace, and hoping he raises it. Which remember isnt gaurunteed. Lots of people will just call with hands that have an ace in them.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

Since we don't know what the SB and MP are capable of playing in these positions, I don't see how we can rule them out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not ruling them out. I'd say the odds of a gutshot being out there are less than 9%. He definitely can have a gutshot. I just don't think it comprises a large portion of his range of hands. And I don't think this swings the turn play to a protection raise over a FPS value call, 3-bet.

[ QUOTE ]
but the downsides to this passive line are: we make the least when we're ahead, and let people draw out for cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true. It's very tough to judge the profitability of a particular line. For instance if we KNEW MP would raise the turn everytime, my line is by far more profitable. The main questions is how often the MP will raise the turn if I call.

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't see the point in posting a hand like this without reads, unless that's the specific reason you're posting (i.e., in general, what is the best line given a normal range of players).

[/ QUOTE ]

I play too many tables to write down stats for 3 people while playing. All my multiway hands will be readless. Sorry.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I think if I call an overpair is very likely to raise. I think his range includes a lot of aces and a lot of big pairs and a couple of KQ,KJ,QJ hands that he will fold. I think if I call, this turn get raised a lot.



[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you have a read that hes aggresive, I think you are way over estimating the amount of times this turn gets raised. from a hand range standpoint there are more hands that arent going to be raising this turn, than are raising them. I also disagree that an overpair is raising this turn. KK-TT just puckered up once that ace fell. So you are hoping he has one of the fewer ranges of hands that has an ace, and hoping he raises it. Which remember isnt gaurunteed. Lots of people will just call with hands that have an ace in them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good enough for me. I officially degree that raising the turn the first time around is the correct play. I save my FPS for when I have a solid read. (I'm pretty sure I didn't have one)
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, Hero calls.

River: (18 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 20 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Ts As (two pair, aces and sixes).
Hero has 9s 9d (full house, nines full of sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 20 BB. </font>

I can only assume MP had an overpair on the flop.

Krishan

[dave44]

Though there is certainly a nice upside to calling when MP does have a raisable hand, I think in the long run you're better off just raising it yourself.

If he's got the Ace, he's not folding and may even get crazy and 3-bet it himself if his kicker is strong enough. On the other side of the kicker spectrum, he may not even raise a pair of aces with a weak kicker. He could also have many Kx and Qx hands here as well and fold regardless.

SB also could have a strong hand and 3-bet your raise.

Lastly, the button looks like a draw so if its overcards he's folding anyway, but if its stronger you'd like to make sure you charge him for it.

[weevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Since we don't know what the SB and MP are capable of playing in these positions, I don't see how we can rule them out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not ruling them out. I'd say the odds of a gutshot being out there are less than 9%. He definitely can have a gutshot. I just don't think it comprises a large portion of his range of hands. And I don't think this swings the turn play to a protection raise over a FPS value call, 3-bet.

[ QUOTE ]
but the downsides to this passive line are: we make the least when we're ahead, and let people draw out for cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true. It's very tough to judge the profitability of a particular line. For instance if we KNEW MP would raise the turn everytime, my line is by far more profitable. The main questions is how often the MP will raise the turn if I call.

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't see the point in posting a hand like this without reads, unless that's the specific reason you're posting (i.e., in general, what is the best line given a normal range of players).

[/ QUOTE ]

I play too many tables to write down stats for 3 people while playing. All my multiway hands will be readless. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, maybe I'm not experienced enough to see how the MP raising our call will garner in general more bets than the times when we raise and he 3bets.. it seems that the two situations would result in nearly the same BBs, right? But when MP checks, we lose a lot more. And if you don't operate off of reads b/c of multitabling, shouldn't you definately lean towards the safer play instead of something a tad too fancy? Just a thought

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
And if you don't operate off of reads b/c of multitabling, shouldn't you definately lean towards the safer play instead of something a tad too fancy? Just a thought

[/ QUOTE ]

You make me laugh.

Krishan

[weevil]

Interesting hand nonetheless. Sorry if I nit to much, I just have too much free time at the moment, and I only learn stuff from these kinds of situations when I get involved (seamingly without knowing what the hell I'm talking about often).

[weevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if you don't operate off of reads b/c of multitabling, shouldn't you definately lean towards the safer play instead of something a tad too fancy? Just a thought

[/ QUOTE ]

You make me laugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that some kind of comeon? Not that there's anything wrong with that..

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting hand nonetheless. Sorry if I nit to much, I just have too much free time at the moment, and I only learn stuff from these kinds of situations when I get involved (seamingly without knowing what the hell I'm talking about often).

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't actually answer you last post. I do play with reads. I use multiple databases though and can't look up the stats of the relevant players after the fact. I also play 6-8 tables and can't write down all the relevant info for multiple players while playing. So yes I had reads when I played and no I can't provide them.

I'm glad you like to mix it up. It's the best way to learn. I'd be a little wary of the all to common backhanded needles. They bother some people and make the forums a less friendly place. (Which is bad)

Krishan

[Willluck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if you don't operate off of reads b/c of multitabling, shouldn't you definately lean towards the safer play instead of something a tad too fancy? Just a thought

[/ QUOTE ]

You make me laugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that some kind of comeon? Not that there's anything wrong with that..


[/ QUOTE ]You don't make me laugh.