Ask any newbie question here

[citanul]

The last version of this post proved a bit of fun, but didn't get to the heart of many commonly asked or possibly scared to ask poker questions.

Please don't fill this thread with joke posts people, I'll delete them. But if you've got a question that you think is a frequently asked one that isn't in the FAQ, or if you have a question that otherwise just goes in the bin "newbie questions" please throw them in here. Questions can be poker, software, forum, whatever, related.

Others who are not me are of course welcome to respond to questions.

citanul

[Big Limpin']

What is the skill difference between the "average 55er", "average 109er", and "average 215er"?

Edit: let me elaborate to clarify what i am looking for...

-What common mistakes are less prevalent (and thus less expoitable)
-Can one have more success w.r.t. defining a tighter hand range from prior action in the hand as BI increases?
-Could you mention some areas of your game that you thought were solid, but found that you were leaking when moving up?

...that kind of stuff. Specific examples will be appreciated. Myself, i havent really ventured above the 55s, but can see myself taking some more serious stabs at the 109s in the near future, and would like to be prepared for how they play differently. And by extention, what would moving up an additional level be like (distant future).

THanks in advance !

BL'

[Felipe]

what's a "bubble" and what strategic changes to my play must I make to be a consistent winner (in, on, or around this "bubble")?

[citanul]

BL,

The skill difference between the average 55er and the average 109er is pretty big. The way I usually think about it is like, the average 109er is a good 55er playing higher stakes. That isn't to say there aren't donkeys at the 109s, but that's the standard of play we're looking at.

The 109 to 215 gap is even larger. There are still donkeys again, but the average player is probably a "good, competant" sng player, with a few tricks up their sleeves, and not going broke with top pair no kicker basically ever.

citanul

[citanul]

Felipe,

For definitions of terms I refer you to the FAQ stickied to the op of the forum.

As for strategy changes, they are many and varied. Stealing blinds becomes a) easier b) imperitive c) where you make your money. It being the bubble means that calling becomes very wrong in certain spots where otherwise it might seem right, as busting out in 4th when 3 pay is very very bad, and taking a 40% chance to do so is very bad. So in short, loosen up raising standards, tighten up calling standards. Mind "the gap."

citanul

[codewarrior]

As a corollary, many replies in this forum assume you are playing at Party Poker, where the games always fill quickly.

At other sites, you may find the same people playing at all of the above levels, starting low early on waiting for the bigger games to fill later. By fill, I mean have greater demand and be fishier.

Yes, I posted content. Doughnut punchers.... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
what's a "bubble" and what strategic changes to my play must I make to be a consistent winner (in, on, or around this "bubble")?

[/ QUOTE ]

"The Bubble" refers to the stage of a tournament when you are just below where the prizes are awarded. In theory, we assume that some players will be hesitant to commit chips when they can get broke, as the next guy out will not get a payout.

The accepted best strategy here is to play more agressively, especially w.r.t. attacking the short stacks, as calls are less likely. Good players prosper significantly during the "bubble peroid", while those who play weak-tight are bound to bleed off chips (blinds) trying to "squeak in". Even if they are successful in this, they are not in good position to place high in the money.

BL'

[Felipe]

thanks.

[Degen]

hope i didn't cause you to cancel last thread /images/graemlins/wink.gif

ok i got one for you...what is the origin of 'pwn' and how exactly do you pronounce that? (seriously)

[citanul]

Degen,

answer to your question is here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn)

citanul

[cleinen]

It was a typo in a computer game, which one i don't remember. The word they were trying to spell was own.

Does anyone have any general tips for playing JJ? I have only recently started using PT, and maybe my sample size is way too small (50 or something), but I was slightly horrified to see that I appear to be losing money with JJ.

Any do's and don'ts? What sort of thing should I be more or less likely to do JJ, when compared to QQ and TT?

Especially at levels 1-2 in a 10+1 where the only way to drive out people who play any face card is to make a huge overbet. Should I just try to limp in cheaply and hope for a set/overpair at that level?

citanul,

you mentioned the gap in one of these posts.

could you explain the gap principle and inflection point(s) please. Im sure these might be more useful in an MTT but knowledge of them would still be appreciated.

[citanul]

stack,

the gap concept is described pretty fully in the FAQ stickied to the top of the forum. it means that you need a bigger hand to call than you think your opponent has on average when he raises. in sng play this means that stealing blinds becomes easier because this "gap" between quality of raising and calling hands widens as people fear busting out right next to the money, so call even less and less.

i can't really give you a run down on inflection points. they appear to basically be spots where it makes sense to gamble because a small change in your stack for the gambling chips doesn't matter, while the big chips you could make by gambling would be huge to you. also they i think include spots where it's ok to gamble for all your chips as a dog getting insufficient odds because of your particular stack and state of the tournament.

but i haven't read hoh2 yet. so what do i know.

citanul

I have been having pretty good success playing sng's one at a time and am contemplating starting to play two or more at a time. Is it possible to have two "screens" up at the same time instead of switching back and forth between the two. When switching I seem to lose focus and make boneheaded decisions but I think if I could watch both tables at the same time this wouldn't happen (at least as much). Is this possible? If so, how do I do it?

Sorry for being a computer illerate-tard but I can't seem to figure this out myself. Thanks.

[citanul]

Rubbish,

There is not now nor will there ever be any "concensus" on how to play JJ preflop. You can profitably play it limping and playing solely for overpair and set value, I'm sure. JJ is (I think I'm remembering this right) the lowest pair favored to be an overpair post flop. So if your opponents all have an overcard or two, they're still a favorite to flop one to beat you. In general I like to raise JJ, but that's not the way many others choose to play it. I, infact, mix in some limps as well.

It's not as strong as QQ clearly, and stronger than TT, clearly. The bottom line is play it "carefully."

citanul

[Quercus]

I'm kind of embarrassed to have to ask this.

Second hand of a 33 SNG, Hero is in BB with AKo. MP minraises, CO comes over the top for 10xBB (150).

What's hero's move?

[fishhead]

Hey Citanul, thanks for doing this. Most recommend pushing UTG when on the bubble to apply max pressure on opponents who are reluctant to bust, especially when you have the big stack. However, it seems this strategy risks a lot of chips to win relatively few since you're usually behind when you do get called. I've lost a lot of big chip leads this way and would appreciate some advice. (Then again, maybe this strategy is the reason for my chip lead in the first place.)

As a follow up, when you do push in these spots (say, with AJo or something), do you recommend pushing with a King instead of an Ace so that you at least have clean outs? The majority of time I get called is with a better Ace or small PP.

Thanks,
Bruce

[johnnybeef]

Citanul,

I have had a considerable amount of success at all levels up to the 55s, and have been told by several respected posters here who have reviewed my hhs that I could beat the higher levels for a marginal amount (single digit roi). I haven't showed profit in close to two months, and I consistantly get my money in with the best of it. I am an extremely confident person, but I am having real doubts as to whether or not I am a winning player when looking at my profit which has a slope that is steeper than a double black diamond in colorado. I have shown a negative profit over my last thousand recorded sngs and am starting to doubt myself. Am I just the unluckiest player on this forum or do I suck? Please, massage my ego a little.

[citanul]

Quercus,

I'd probably instafold in that spot. I haven't played the 33s in a long time, but from what I remember, the avg miniraise and the avg reraise at that spot are signs of strength, I want to say that you're probably in bad shape unless you run into a donkey with AT-AQ or something here, and taking a flop is both not gauranteed if you call and too much of your stack to attempt. I'd just let this one go.

citanul

[playtitleist]

Please help me understand the stop-n-go.

This is what I have gathered.

* SNG is basically calling with every intention of going all-in after the flop, regardless of the flop.
* SNG pretty much only available to the player who will act first in the next round of betting.

Please first confirm I am understanding the concept.

Secondly though, I am not quite understanding the value. The play seems to assume your opponent will likely fold to a pre-flop all-in. So your goal using the SNG is to get more chips after the flop. But again, a player that would only call with a hand pre-flop is even less likely to call an all-in after the flop. If he does it's going to be with a made hand, in which you are likely beat - unless you too have a hand and then it's not so much a SNG. How then do you stand to gain with this play?

Newb and getting newer every hand.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Quercus,

I'd probably instafold in that spot. I haven't played the 33s in a long time, but from what I remember, the avg miniraise and the avg reraise at that spot are signs of strength, I want to say that you're probably in bad shape unless you run into a donkey with AT-AQ or something here, and taking a flop is both not gauranteed if you call and too much of your stack to attempt. I'd just let this one go.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is why I suck at SNGs.

[Quercus]

[ QUOTE ]
Quercus,

I'd probably instafold in that spot. I haven't played the 33s in a long time, but from what I remember, the avg miniraise and the avg reraise at that spot are signs of strength, I want to say that you're probably in bad shape unless you run into a donkey with AT-AQ or something here, and taking a flop is both not gauranteed if you call and too much of your stack to attempt. I'd just let this one go.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

I mucked, but felt bad about it.

[citanul]

fishhead,

bubble pushes are stack (in terms of bb), opponent, position, card, and other opponent stack dependent. you definitely should not be pushing utg every time you are utg. additionally, since the new party level, the bubble has been occurring earlier, meaning that the blinds sometimes don't make sense to make these high pressure moves as early as i have seen people making them (with like 17bb) in games as high as the 109s. i would definitely not recommend pushing kx hands over ax hands, as you're going to get called by hands like KQ often as well as mid/big aces. the majority of your profit on push hands on the bubble is coming from fold equity, not the strength of your hand. but yes, you should be pushing lots of Kx hands to go with the lots of Ax hands and lots of Qhigh hands, J high hands, and pairs, around the bubble, from different positions. sometimes you're called, and sometimes you're behind, and you lose. but the way you build your stack shouldn't have much to do with being called when you have the best hand.

citanul

Ive been playing cash games for little more than a year and recently decided to give sngs (10+1) a try, little embarassed to ask but....

1. how is ROI calculated? does the buy-in fee count in calculations / do i need to make more than 10% return to overcome rake?

2. I have a very, very small sample size (50 games), but I'm down 50 dollars. I understand variance, but against the terrible players at 10+1 level, Im starting to worry. I've lost 7 games in a row twice now and wondering if that is normal at such low limits.

3. Is my reasoning right to limp/gamble with just about any 2 cards during LV1 until im down to 700 chips? I think that i can make a big leap if i make 2 pair or better agaisnt these players and that 700 stack and 600 stack wont make a difference once round 4 begins.

4. I almost always push from sb according to that famous blind stealing post. Should I ever push from buttom or worst at like say LV5 with two random cards when I have about 1000 chips?

Thanks ALOT ALOT in advance for ansering these, I suck at sngs right now

-Brian

[citanul]

beef,

from reading your posts, if you play like you post advice, i'm sure you can win at higher levels than the 55s. then again, i can't honestly say that it is for everyone to play high buyin games with low roi. (see raptor's recent postings.) for many people it is correct to play lower stakes higher roi games, even though you are sacking some dollars in the run. variance is a bitch, and causes many people to lose confidence.

if i were you i'd step back a buyin level or two and absolutely smoke the crap out of them for a 3-5 day stretch. i find that massages my ego, and it will probably do the same for yours (as well as posting a win).

citanul

[citanul]

play,

you have the fundamental understanding of what the plan of the play is down.

but the other stuff you're off on.

the idea is that the player you're against is unlikely to fold preflop, because of the few number of chips you have remaining behind. but, post missing a flop, they are likely to fold, incorrectly. the point is that 2/3 of the time a player misses a flop, and it is harder to call a bet on the flop with nothing than to call preflop when you're pot committed to do so.

you are generating folding equity where there was none previously.

citanul

[citanul]

bebop,

ROI is defined in the FAQ stickied to the top of the forum.

It is (total payouts - total buyins)/(total buyins)

Your sample size is very small, don't worry too much about being down a few buyins, you're still learning the game. Losing a few in a row is fairly common. Good players are in the money about 40% of the time, so 60% out, so .6^7 to lose 7 in a row. It happens. I was ootm 11 to start the day today.

Your strategy of playing any two earlier is terrible. Tighten up. play hands that are likely to flop big, pairs, big suited broadways, and tighten up from there if necessary (many players don't play anything but pairs, AK and AQ early).

At high blinds levels it is often correct to push any two cards first in from the small blind. lvl 5 is 75/150, right? then yes, pushing random cards against a bb who can fold is very ok.

citanul

[playtitleist]

Got it. So a pre-flop all-in by the Hero is relatively unlikely to steal the pot, because the short stack makes the villain think "dude is just trying to steal". While the SNG post-flop all-in give the villain the opportunity throw the hand away because it likely missed him and no need for villain to call at that point.

Follow-up question: Does it make sense to make this play from a bigger stack?

[citanul]

play,

you've almost got it. it's not just that he thinks "hey he's trying to steal because he's short." you might very well have a real hand, like a small or medium pair. it's just that because you would prefer your opponent not call the bet, and give you the maximum chances to not bust out of the tournament, that you can pull this play. your opponent would be mathematically obligated to call because of the size of your reraise (you're usually calling a raise in the bb) if you were to do so, whereas, he can have the chance to screw up if you play the SNG.

2nd question, i'm sure that it's possible to find spots where a similar play would make sense from the big stack, but it wouldn't be a stop and go any more. a stop and go specifically refers to when you generate more folding equity. with a big stack, an example of this would be bubble time calling a raise from a non short stack, and then leading out (not all in) at a pot against another healthy stack because it will be hard for that player to continue often due to his fear of busting before the shorty. but the stacks have to be just right for this sort of play.

citanul

[Bill Poker]

one of my friend claims that he has 50% ITM and ~50%ROI over 1000 $10+1 SNGs by 4 tabling, which amounts to about $22/set or $30/hr. according to FAQ, a good player can only make 20% ROI on $30/$50 SNGs, so even by 4 tabling, for $30, you can only make $25/set for $30s or ~$40/set for $50s. so what is the point to move up? $10 sngs are much less "variance is bitch". btw he is quite smart and has more than enough bankroll for $50s.

or maybe he just had a luckbox over the last 1000 $10s?

[citanul]

bill,

if your friend plays at party poker, his statistics are only attainable by running incredibly hot.

citanul

[Meatmaw]

Will you hate me if it's a MTT question? People over there don't seem to like my post enough to answer. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-----

Can someone explain or clarify if it's always in one's best interest to rebuy immediately if that is an option? If so, or if not, what assumptions are required for it to be so? And if there is a difference in single rebuy or multi-rebuy, why that is?

I have always felt that it seems advantageous to always rebuy immediately, but I haven't played any rebuy tournies so haven't thought about it much nor experienced it much.

Thanks.

[Grisgra]

What's the difference in opponent skill level in the 11s, 22s, 33s, and 55s? Just as most (though not all) 2+2'ers can beat 2/4 at Party, or 3/6 SH at Party, what is the level that most SNG'ers generally excel at without too much pain?

Also, the mini multitable tournaments -- are the skill levels there similar to the same buy-ins for SNGs (i.e., in a 2-table $33, same skill as the schmoes in a SNG $33?)

[Anadrol 50]

What is a good 'average place'?

[TxDozerMan]

Is there a goood way to get "registered" into Party SNGs, or at least to make the lobby not minimize everytime you click into a table? I am new to multi-tabling and spend half my time getting the set loaded up.

[Anadrol 50]

What software is helpful for 1tt ?

[Inch]

[ QUOTE ]
Will you hate me if it's a MTT question? People over there don't seem to like my post enough to answer.

-----

Can someone explain or clarify if it's always in one's best interest to rebuy immediately if that is an option? If so, or if not, what assumptions are required for it to be so? And if there is a difference in single rebuy or multi-rebuy, why that is?

I have always felt that it seems advantageous to always rebuy immediately, but I haven't played any rebuy tournies so haven't thought about it much nor experienced it much.

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
this depends on your table.. If players at your table rebuys immediately, then you have to rebuy. Because in all-in situations, you need to get the most from your villain.

example:
you and your villain has 1500 chips each. If you win, you'll have 3000 chips. However, if both you and the villain has rebuyed to 3000 chips, you will have 6000.

[Ogre]

(100+9)How do you play AA/KK/QQ in the early rounds when an unknown player in EP min raises and its folded to you in LP?

[citanul]

Meat,

Another poster already handled this one pretty well. The idea is that you want to be able to maximize what you can take from your opponents on a given hand. So it is best to always have the table covered or tied if possible. If you don't take the immediate rebuy, you can't stack a guy who has when he does something donkish, if you do, you can.

citanul

[citanul]

Anadrol,

Average place is a totally meaningless statistic with respect to sit and goes. It is one of those stats that you can either try to tear apart and find relevance in, or ignore and focus on stats that mean something. One method is clearly superior to the other.

citanul

[citanul]

Grisgara,

Referring to the average player at each stake:

At the 10s people are nuts.
- they are more than willing to lose all their chips with an underpair to the board, routinely. they don't know how to steal on the bubble, how to not call on the bubble, and they probably aren't potty trained.

At the 20s they are a little less nuts.
- they're more likely to be potty trained, and to not make quite so many calls on the bubble.

At the 30s they are even one more step less nuts.
- they are almost all potty trained, and you see less, but still quite a bit, totally ridiculous play.

At the 50s they have some semblence of a clue of what's going on
- the most donkish thing the average opponent still does at this stake is to constantly go broke with top pair bad kicker, and to go all in with any oesd and any flush draw. they know how to steal on the bubble usually, and know not to call too much too.

I don't think that there is any level that any 2+2er who either isn't sort of a natural at tournament theory or who hasn't studied at least a little bit will beat handilly. Bubble play and late game play too heavilly important, and are not entirely intuitive. I think that a good poker player who understands poker on a more theoretical level than just your standard low limit grinder could make a quick transition to the sngs and begin beating at minimum the 30s.

From what I understand your conception of the mini-multis is basically correct. When they run, they are the same caliber of opponents at the same buyin levels, if not lower.

citanul

[citanul]

Tx,

Not that I know of. I just open a table, then quickly unminimize the lobby, and go again. I think someone wrote a script that auto checks the box in the take seat dialogue box.

citanul

[citanul]

Anadrol,

The most useful pieces of software I would probably list as those that are listed in the FAQ. The spreadsheet, poker tracker, sit and go tracker, the sit and go power tools, pokerstove are the tops, as far as I'm concerned. Poker Prophecy is the worst.

citanul

[citanul]

Ogre,

I reraise. I begin to think about trapping in situations like this when the size of the open raise would be enough to seed a good pot. At the early levels, the blinds+the raise aren't going to be enough to really stick my opponent to a pot. Additionally, at the lower levels a raise and a call is going to give the blinds OK odds to come in, or at least many blinds seem to think so. This isn't to say I always cold call or trap in some other way with a big hand in these spots, but I do sometimes when the pot will start out fairly large.

So at 10/15, 15/30, 25/50 there is basically no way I'm doing anything but reraising, especially if there's a good chance the raiser has a real hand (solidish player in EP raising). Additionally, an extra donky opponent who's happy to get all in with AJ or whatnot is great to reraise too. Depending on the donk, and my stack, the push becomes the optimal raise size in many situations.

Yeah, I guess I left out that a lot of it depends on my stack size and the open raiser's stack size as well. I'm less inclined to trap, for obvious reasons, if my stack is unhealthy.

citanul

[tom441lbk]

so i thought you could play 4+ tables on eurobet, but it is limiting me to 4? whats the dealio?

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Will you hate me if it's a MTT question? People over there don't seem to like my post enough to answer. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-----

Can someone explain or clarify if it's always in one's best interest to rebuy immediately if that is an option? If so, or if not, what assumptions are required for it to be so? And if there is a difference in single rebuy or multi-rebuy, why that is?

I have always felt that it seems advantageous to always rebuy immediately, but I haven't played any rebuy tournies so haven't thought about it much nor experienced it much.

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's generally accepted that it's correct to always rebuy at the beginning. Taking the addon is more debatable, but it's still considered +EV unless your stack is already huge by the break. I suggest searching in the MTT archive. THis topic has been talked about in great length. Look especially for old posts by Greg Raymer (Greg "Fossilman").

[rydazzle]

I thought I had a good understanding of "fold equity", but just read something that makes me believe it is totally incorrect. I fear a search will yield 4 billion results, is there a general thread on fold equity?

[citanul]

tom,

each of the party skins tops out at 4 tables.

citanul

[tom441lbk]

ty

[citanul]

ry,

what is it that you don't understand?

fold equity is double edged, for now i'll call on "fold equity" and one "folding equity."

fold equity is the actual equity in a given pot given to you because there is a % likelihood your opponents will fold.

folding equity is a property of having enough chips in your stack at any point to have fold equity.

so:

if there are 1000 chips in the pot and you think that by going all in for whatever is in your stack, there is a 50% likelihood that everyone will fold, your "fold equity" in that pot is 500 chips. your other equity is of course a function of what hands you can expect to call you and how you will run against them.

whereas if the blind is 1000 and you have 1500 chips, you likely have no "folding equity" preflop, as whomever is in the blind will be pot committed to call your raise.

if you have no folding equity, you can have no fold equity, by the definitions i have set here.

in other posts fold equity and folding equity will be used interchangably to mean both of these things, but it will be intuitive which is meant when you understand the concepts.

citanul

[lilkunta2]

im not really a newbie, but this is a good place to have my question answerd. this move seems kind of standar for me, accualy very standard, almost automatic. but i begin to question it when i consistently get called bu better hands from the blinds. is the indeed the correct move and is it a +EV situation?

***** Hand History for Game 2442267477 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:14354873 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Friday, July 29, 04:49:17 EDT 2005
Table Table 35315 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 1: Gdub424 ( $1283 )
Seat 2: lilkunta2 ( $1470 )
Seat 7: BestHand06 ( $5247 )
Trny:14354873 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lilkunta2 [ As 9c ]
lilkunta2 is all-In [1470]
BestHand06 calls [1395].
Gdub424 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, Qc, 6s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8c ]
lilkunta2 shows [ As, 9c ] a pair of nines.
BestHand06 shows [ Jc, Ah ] a pair of jacks.
BestHand06 wins 3090 chips from the main pot with a pair of jacks.
lilkunta2 finished in third place and won $20.
lilkunta2 has left the table.

and i am trying not to be results oriented,,,, i still think it was the right move, but i am just getting slightly skeptical.

[citanul]

lil,

you played it fine.

citanul

[baronzeus]

Why do I suck so much at poker?


Edit; THis isn't meant sarcastically. I really need help with my game in all aspects.

[Rasputin]

Someone I know on another forum is looking for the "formula" to beat Party SnGs.

Is it outlined in a post anywhere that someone has a link to?

I've done a search but haven't found it.

[Rasputin]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone I know on another forum is looking for the "formula" to beat Party SnGs.

Is it outlined in a post anywhere that someone has a link to?

I've done a search but haven't found it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adanthar's Strategy Guide (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2934542&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=1&vc=1)

Found this, I think this will do.

[Rosie5]

[ QUOTE ]
tom,

each of the party skins tops out at 4 tables.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how come I always hear people talk about 8 and 12 tabling?

How are they doing 12 when really no other site offers SNGs at every level

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tom,

each of the party skins tops out at 4 tables.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how come I always hear people talk about 8 and 12 tabling?

How are they doing 12 when really no other site offers SNGs at every level

[/ QUOTE ]

Many players, have accounts at more than one skin. Euro, Empire, Party, etc.

[Maulik]

When I go to the bar with “acquaintances” people who think I’m their friends I get very bored. Is this a result of these people being boring or me being unsocial? How can this be resolved?

[fluorescenthippo]

For all the 2+2ers who started playing online poker from scratch at the 10s and got to the 50s with an ROI over 10%, how long did this take on average?

[Maulik]

Do most of the better players of this forum re-play all of their tournament histories?

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
For all the 2+2ers who started playing online poker from scratch at the 10s and got to the 50s with an ROI over 10%, how long did this take on average?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question is a little too generic, as some players have far more time to dedicate to playing SNGs. Perhaps asking how many tournaments were played at each level may help, perhaps not. Some players never cash out and are able to take shots sooner than others...

[fluorescenthippo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For all the 2+2ers who started playing online poker from scratch at the 10s and got to the 50s with an ROI over 10%, how long did this take on average?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question is a little too generic, as some players have far more time to dedicate to playing SNGs. Perhaps asking how many tournaments were played at each level may help, perhaps not. Some players never cash out and are able to take shots sooner than others...

[/ QUOTE ]


yea its too generic but i couldnt think of a better way. i just hoped the mighty citanul would answer my question perfectly. I guess i was wondering in terms of tourneys played or even hours/week.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a goood way to get "registered" into Party SNGs, or at least to make the lobby not minimize everytime you click into a table? I am new to multi-tabling and spend half my time getting the set loaded up.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there isn't, but I have written something in autohotkey that keeps the lobby always on-screen and not minimized. It's at home, I will post it later. It also 'drags' any tables across to the current monitor with the lobby in, although that's a bit kooky right now.

[vinyard]

You mentioned earlier in the thread the increasingly common phenomenom of having an ITM situation where all three players have 15+BB. Simply, I stink in this situation. I will often be in a situation at an 800 chip game where all three of us will have 2500 to 2800 chips at T100 or T150. Are there any other games that can help me playing this shorthanded? Or just general suggestions? Compared to the average profitable SNGer I am reasonably good post flop - Should I just start (*gasp*) limping and miniraising with anything serviceable?

[tigerite]

I never limp or miniraise 3-handed

Well ok, maybe not "never", but it would be if both were being v. aggressive and I had AA or KK or something like that

[Big Limpin']

what does "ehot" mean? also, define "3u0"

[Colonel Kataffy]

cit,

How much ROI do you think it would cost an expert to autofold for the first 3 levels of a party 55?

(don't need anything scientific, best guess is fine)

[Dave G.]

This looks like a good thread, so I thought I'd ask a couple of questions...

I've been playing limit and NL ring games for a while with pretty good success. However, I'm still quite new to SnGs and I seem to be struggling with them. I've read HoH, TPFAP, and a large number of the recommended threads here, so I have some basic understanding about the theory and what to do, but I'm having a lot of trouble showing profit. I'm usually either break even or down. I play the Stars SnGS mostly.

So... I'd like to ask you experienced SnGers, what were some of the main turning points in your understanding about SnGs that you think made significant improvements to your play?

One problem I'd like opinions on is that I often find myself in the middle stages of an SnG with a less than average stack, because I play pretty tightly early on. This doesn't leave me much room to move later on and I find I'm pretty much having to push if I want to play a hand, since I'll be pot committed anyway, which is of course risky. When should I start playing more aggressively, and how loosely should I then be playing in order to reach the middle stage with a healthier stack?

Any comments are welcomed. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Voltron87]

Post deleted by citanul

[OrangeKing]

Complete newbie quesitons, since I've been playing SnGs for about a month now as a change of pace. I'm playing at Stars to clear some bonuses - how many buy-ins constitute a safe bankroll? And what kinds of ROI and ITM can I expect at the 9-handed Stars games as opposed to the numbers I see for Party 10-handed games?

Thanks!

[citanul]

baronzeus,

You appear to spend too much time posting and not enough time playing. Beyond that, I honestly have no idea. You appear to do all your posting in the strategy forums basically, which means you're not over in OOT. Unfortunately there's nothing I can tell you about why you suck without more information.

citanul

[citanul]

Maulik,

This is the Non-Dear Abby thread. If you want to ask your question in the ask citanul *anything* thread, feel free.

citanul

[citanul]

fluorescenthippo,

It will clearly take a different amount of time based on how many games you play at a time and in a day, and what your ROI turns out to be at each level. You can sit down with a pencil and paper and figure out how long something like this would take very quickly. If you want to know for instance how many days it takes you would do (amount needed to move up based on your bankroll needs)/(ROI x (tables in a day)).

citanul

[citanul]

Maulik,

No.

citanul

Maybe my earlier post got lost in the shuffle but for multitabling is it possible to show multiple screens on the monitor at the same time without having to switch back and forth between games? If so, can someone explain to me how I can do this?

[Mr_J]

Is the jump from $55s to $109s harder than the jump from $11s to $55s???

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe my earlier post got lost in the shuffle but for multitabling is it possible to show multiple screens on the monitor at the same time without having to switch back and forth between games? If so, can someone explain to me how I can do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, of course, you can fit up to 4 if you have a 1600x1200 resolution. Just right click on the desktop, then 'properties' and the last tab on display settings. The slider at the bottom left is for resolution. If your monitor can't go that high you will have overlap, sadly.

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the jump from $55s to $109s harder than the jump from $11s to $55s???

[/ QUOTE ]

did you jump from the $11s to the $55s?

[citanul]

vinyard,

In these new deeper stacked situations, you should play however you are comfortable. The important thing to remember is that people are still going to let you steal from them, so knowing which of your opponents is the tighty if only one of them is is very important. You're very comfortable playing post flop, so you should be OK when you raise 2.5bb or 3bb and get called and have to see a flop.

As for minraising, let's review the much maligned minraise for a second. There are several reasons to raise. The two that are most common in a late game SNG are to extract value from your big hands by getting more money in the pot while protecting your hand at the same time, and trying to get your opponents to fold. While some argue that when trying to extract value from your hand you can get more value sometimes by enticing your opponents to enter the pot, this is a dangerous play. That doesn't make it wrong though, just use with caution. With respect to the other goal, making them fold, as many smarter players than I have said, "you raise the least you think will get the job done." Similarly, if you find yourself in some wacky bubble or so situation where you think minraising has the same folding equity as pushing, minraising becomes a clear option.

I don't think that I would do much limping at all though even in these deeper stacked situations. I'll limp fairly often when I'm in the SB and the button limps to us, but that just doesn't happen all that often.

I guess what it comes down to is: raise good hands, fold bad ones, play post flop well. Sometimes raise bad hands too. But remember that the bubble is burst, so you should be coming over the top of a weak raiser fairly often with hands that on the bubble you would be throwing away. I do very little calling of preflop raises, I mostly come over the top when I'm entering a raised pot.

citanul

[citanul]

BL,

ehot = ever heard of that?
3u0 = is a smiley.

citanul

[citanul]

Colonel,

This is stakes dependent, but as an estimate at the average, probably about 4%?

citanul

[cadillac1234]

The Party $6 SNGs are so bad with players making laydowns at 25-1 pot odds, calling dead hands, cold calling with Q6o, etc is it worth the .50c tax to keep playing them with a 49% ROI and a 50% ITM or are the $11s just as bad without the extra tax?

[citanul]

Dave,

There've been several turning points for me, but clearly the most important one is learning to play the bubble effectively.

With respect to your problem with getting to the mid-game with less than average stack. At stars you *can* open up your early game from the super tight strategy more profitably than you can do so at the 800 chip games at party. If you are a good NL cash game player, this should be profitable to you in relation to playing super tight.

Many people do note that while they are playing super tight, they often wind up under average. The point is that by playing super tight you accomplish 2 things:

1) you don't bust early hardly ever, and being alive late is very good for you ROI, even if you are under the avg stack
2) when you do play a hand it is usually good, and has a good chance to flop something that some donkey will double you up with. so while your most frequent stack might be a little small, on average, you should be +chips in the early running.

citanul

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
The Party $6 SNGs are so bad with players making laydowns at 25-1 pot odds, calling dead hands, cold calling with Q6o, etc is it worth the .50c tax to keep playing them with a 49% ROI and a 50% ITM or are the $11s just as bad without the extra tax?

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll become a better player for player a somewhat stronger field. You'll also earn more money for doing so.
You only need 1/2 the ROI to make the same in the $11s

[mlagoo]

any hot advice for me before i go to play in the $115 saturday morning tournament at the taj?

It will be my first casino multi, and will likely be the largest tournament field i've played against live (previous was about 50). i'm fairly giddy about it for some reason, despite the fact that i go through greater than $100 swings online fairly frequently.

[citanul]

Orange,

"safe" bankroll is a matter of how good you are. But for lower stakes games if you're willing to move down when you run bad, 30-40 buyins is "safe."

I'm not incredibly well versed in the Stars SNGs, but I think you can expect slightly higher ROIs at them, with a lower hourly rate even still, because they take significantly longer.

citanul

[citanul]

davjos,

I'm not quite clear on your question, but I do apologize for missing it the first time through. I think what you mean is that the tables appear too large on your screen, so you have massive overlap of your tables?

If so, you either need to change your resolution (right click desktop, click properties, go to settings tab, play around with slider) or if your monitor and graphics card don't support higher resolutions, you might have to buy a new monitor or graphics card or both.

good luck,

citanul

edit: someone already got to this one, but do note, some monitors and cards just can't handle high resolutions, and you will have to buy new ones if that is the case.

[citanul]

Mr J,

I don't think so. The 10s are incredibly soft in general, while the 50s they usually have quite a clue what's going on. At the 109s they have even more of a clue what's going on, but I don't think that the skill difference can be as big as between the 10s and 50s just because it isn't simple to make money at the 50s.

citanul

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
The Party $6 SNGs are so bad with players making laydowns at 25-1 pot odds, calling dead hands, cold calling with Q6o, etc is it worth the .50c tax to keep playing them with a 49% ROI and a 50% ITM or are the $11s just as bad without the extra tax?

[/ QUOTE ]

The players at the $11 are still terrible so it isn't worth paying the higher vig in the $6's.

[citanul]

Maulik,

No, I went from the 10s to the 20s to the 200s.

citanul

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
Maulik,

No, I went from the 10s to the 20s to the 200s.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

My question was for the OP of this question Mr. J.

I'm interested in the reasoning / method to jumping from the $20s to $2bills if possible.

[citanul]

cadillac,

since you should be able to beat the 11s if you play quite well for more than 1/2 the ROI you are experiencing at the 6s, while paying 1/2 the vig, yes. also, since otherwise you never move up in stakes, unless you are happy with the amount you make at that level, you're going to move up eventually. the move to the 11s should be the easiest one.

citanul

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

ehot = ever heard of that? <font color="red"> this originated from the first weekend of the WSOP basically....Irieguy and Zen were talking about a patient who would incessantly ask 'dr. I have XXX symptoms, ever heard of that? Anyway, it became a catch phrase for the weekend....ehot?</font>

3u0 = <font color="red">one backwards and upside down</font>


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Yugoslav

[citanul]

mlagoo,

watch the players around you, don't put off obvious tells, and don't think the game works the same way as it does at home on the computer.

the most common tell for an internet player is to look at their cards and become disinterested before the action is to them when they aren't going to play them. don't do that, but do pay attention to others who clearly do.

don't think that minraising is forbidden or stupid in brick and mortar play. people will not be aware of the pot size. you should be aware of the pot size. tracking how many chips someone has is harder live, you should get a feel for this as fast as possible, so that you don't have to constantly ask how much someone has left.

eh, that's about all for the instant refresher course.

citanul

[citanul]

Maulik,

My comment was only half in gest.

I picked up a backer, which made my original move to the 200s more sudden than most.

citanul

[citanul]

Yugo,

Does your avatar say BOW DOWN!!!! under it?

I don't think so.

This ain't Nam, we have rules. I like it better as a smiley.

3u0

citanul

[Dave G.]

Thanks for the responses. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Can you suggest any basic guidelines for playing on the bubble? I know a lot depends on how tight / aggressive your opponents are, but there might be some general rules of thumb that are good to know... maybe... I hope... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Mr_J]

"did you jump from the $11s to the $55s?"

Yes. After around 25 sngs. I worked hard on my game over that first week of sngs and most of the advantage I have today comes from it. I didn't stay at the $55s for long though, jumped to the $33s to get coaching to make sure I was decent and get rid of leaks, played around 1400 sngs after that (450 $33s 900 $22s and some more $55s). Haven't played much since until July. I'm thinking if I put in the same effort I did in my first few days of sngs, then maybe the jump to the $109s won't be that bad at all.

[citanul]

Dave,

Basically all the hands on this forum are about bubble play. Though tiresome, that's the way it is.

Guidelines,

Steal lots, call little. Avoid stealing from people who will likely call when you don't have the values or chips to burn.

That last one sounds trite, but really, do pay attention to people's stacks, if they are too short or too big they are way more likely to call you. Similarly if they are just plain pissed off.

citanul

[jcm4ccc]

Flame it.

[EnderFFX]

5 people left, I'm UTG Everyone is at 1600 in chips, with the blinds at 150/300 what do you do with the following cards?

AA
AKo
KQs
JTo
J8s
99
55
22

What do you do if you are on the button and it makes it to you without entering the pot? with one person limping in? with a min raise? with a push?

[cadillac1234]

Thanks for the replies and advice everyone!

[Maulik]

Post deleted by Maulik

[mlagoo]

Raise to 750 chips UTG (~45% of your stack) with KQs? or AKo? The only hand I can see making that raise with is AA, and thats pretty fishy. If you're coming in, you're pushing. I would muck everything except for AA, AKo, and 99, which I would push (POSSIBLY raise to 700 w/ AA).

[citanul]

utg | btn | btn w/limp | btn w/minraise | btn w/push
AA PUSH | PUSH | PUSH | PUSH | PUSH
AK PUSH | PUSH | PUSH | PUSH | PUSH
KQ PUSH | PUSH | PUSH | FOLD | FOLD
JTo FOLD | PUSH | FOLD | FOLD | FOlD
J8s FOLD | PUSH | FOLD | FOLD | FOLD
99 PUSH | PUSH | PUSH | FOLD | FOLD
55 PUSH | PUSH | PUSH | FOLD | FOLD
22 PUSH | PUSH | PUSH | FOLD | FOLD

Ones that I might just be outright wrong off the top of my head w.r.t. ICM:

the 99 folds to the push
the 55 and 22 pushes utg
the JTo fold utg

Those ones I'm not entirely sure of.

The ones behind the limps, and minraises are basically read dependent. If you think you've got folding equity, the 99 becomes a push over a minraise I would think. You basically need to know if the guy is trapping you when he limps or minraises.

citanul

[Mr_J]

I know the question looks a little silly (jumping several buyins to jumping just one). It's just that I picked up sngs very quickly and went from a total beginner to decent at the $33s (or so irie suggested /images/graemlins/wink.gif) and felt I could definately hold my own at the $55s. This is alot to learn quickly (I crammed, just read alot of the archives and took alot of notes) so my thinking is that if I can do it once, I can do it again but for the $109s.

Just been hearing how tough the $109s are, and raptors stats threw me off a bit (~18% at the $55s and 9% at the $109s), but I then remember that you guys weren't always at the $109s and above, and that all it takes is some work.

I'd really like to get my hours down to 3 a day /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Also my step BR says I should have a go soon and am trying to justify it all /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Double also, my nicks are great for having a go at the $109s. They suggest the player being a wannabe pro.

[citanul]

Mr J,

So play some 109s, what's the worst taht could happen?

citanul

follow up comment/question.

I also found myself on the lower end of the chip stack mid rounds. What I found is that I played TOO tight the first 2 rounds, and some of the truth was I didn't take advantage of people too willing to fold and predictable self-proclaimed experts (these are on 5-10 dollar buy ins). One will love to fold, the other won't play unless he's got something real good.

Some games are played right off with raises and normal tight "proper" play fits.

The tables I struggled with were ones filled with limpers who easily ran at a raise. I was folding while they played, and they folded to my anything. My AA couldn't take any value (they quickly folded) or got outdrawn if I tried to build a pot. By mid-game, all the loose players were gone, and I didn't capitalize on any of it. Now I'm up against the better players, and I have the smaller stack.

I read somewhere that the 7-2 offsuits should be taking those limps. If I had A4 and an Ace with 2 blanks hit, I'd bet, get raised (strong raise), and fold to what was seen as a better kicker.

So why doesn't my 7-2 take the place of the A4? Why wait forever for an A-4 just to flop an A I'd fold to a decent bet anyway. I'm SURELY more willing to fold a 7-2 on a call or re-raise. If called, i check it off, see how much he likes his A-x. Good players bet and aren't worth challenging, trival bets/calls (weak identified players) can be raised into folding.

Now a 7-2 is extreme, but a J2s and an ace hits, everyone limps or checks.

Check on my strategy here please. Round 1-2: many limps preflop (I read you hate that), I raise or respect someone elses raise which balances out to not all 10 hands limped in. I'm less interested in the winner, more interested in who can be raised into calling/folding, and then trying to get them heads up for post flop play. in rounds 2 to the bubble.

[Grisgra]

Asking again bcs Citanul blew me off!

What's the difference in opponent skill level in the 11s, 22s, 33s, and 55s? Just as most (though not all) 2+2'ers can beat 2/4 at Party, or 3/6 SH at Party, what is the level that most SNG'ers generally excel at without too much pain?

Also, the mini multitable tournaments -- are the skill levels there similar to the same buy-ins for SNGs (i.e., in a 2-table $33, same skill as the schmoes in a SNG $33?)

[EnderFFX]

I'm playing the $11 level at party and the $16 at PStars. Does this change any of your answers?

How do you feel about these hands?
AJo
A9s
A4s
KJo
QTs

Thank you for letting me pick your brain. I'm a winning player with an ROI of proly like 10%, I'm just trying to get beter.

[tech]

Grisgra, scroll up a few posts. He already answered your question in a lot of detail. Not sure what more you could expect him to say.

I tried doing a search for this but came up with nothing. I play 11s on a Party skin and was wondering if there is any difference in play between midday and evening.

My guess is that games in the evening would be easier to beat because of people coming home from work and playing a few STTs for recreation. Any merit to this or is play generally the same throughout the day?

Thanks in advance

MisterW

[illunious]

Is there a commonly agreed upon number for the average amount of time it takes to play a Party SNG?

[playtitleist]

Dave, I am probably more Newb than you, but I just wanted to give you an example of stealing from the right players are the right time from a game last night.

Don't have all the detail in front of me, but we were at 4 players. PP $11. Big Stack had ~t4500. I had about t1700. Small stacks were about even at ~t1000.

Earlier in the week, on this very forum, some thread suggested I had given the other players too much room to call my steal attempt.

So in this case last night:

UTG - folds (big stack)
Button - calls
SB - calls
Hero - checks

pot = t300

Flop is J and rags. SB checks and I decide I want to steal the pot, because I have been playing like a puss on the bubble lately (actually always) and need to fix it.

So as suggested, I played THEIR stacks, while protecting mine. I put out t700. Which is more than I would have last week (could easily be the wrong play, which I would love to get feedback on). The bet cripple either one of them if I win, but leaves me more than the small stack if I get beat/fold. For them to call/raise the t700 would be committing to the tournament at that moment.

It worked as the 2+2 vets had promised. Neither wanted to be stuck short stacked. Maybe neither had a hand, but it felt good to make the right play (?) on the bubble.

Playing the opponent's stack was the key. Thanks 2+2.

[citanul]

Bill,

If you're struggling with the games that have players in them who limp constantly and then fold to any raise it is your fault. And the flaw in your thinking is very clear. Why are you seeking to limp into pots with crappy cards in such situations when you could instead just raise with the crap, and raise with your good hands too, and constantly be stealing the limped chips in the pot?

The concept of playing any two with the 800 chip games in the early going is incredibly flawed. Especially if you can't continue without flopping a monster. All you are doing by limping hands as weak as Axo is spewing some small percentage of your stack each time. What flop are you actually looking for there with A3? A3x? 33x? Those just aren't htat likely.

Tighten up in general.

If players limp and you think you can take the pot down frequently by just throwing a raise out there, raise, it doesn't matter your cards, but definitely raise your good hands.

Be careful with this, as it can get you into tricky spots though. The much simpler way to do it is to play hands that when they hit the flop you are likely to be willing to go to the felt with the donkeys you compete with.

citanul

[citanul]

Grisgra,

I didn't blow you off.

I answered up here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2995835&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1)

citanul

[citanul]

Ender,

I can't provide a list of all of these things, but your stakes does make it less likely someone is concealing strength in a limp or a minraise, I think. I'm not overly familiar with your games though so I might be wrong.

I'd probably push all of those except when faced with a push or a minraise, in which case I'd fold all of them, I think. I might push the AJ over a minraise depending on the opp.

Again, if you think you've got some folding equity, looser pushing becomes more and more right.

citanul

[citanul]

Mister,

I believe your intuition to have been measured and to be correct in most cases.

citanul

[citanul]

ill,

I believe that since the new level the average time for a 800 chip game is 40-45 min, and hte 1000 chip games are about 5 minutes longer than that.

citanul

[EnderFFX]

Thx for the help. I hit a bit of a town turn and was analyzing my bubble play to see if I'm messing something up or if it is just variance.

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]
ill,

I believe that since the new level the average time for a 800 chip game is 40-45 min, and hte 1000 chip games are about 5 minutes longer than that.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the fast reply, I'm not sure I was clear enough.

Is this the time it takes for one to end (whether you bust early or not), or the average time one would spend playing (in some you last 5 minutes, some an hour, so 40-45 mins average)? I was asking about the later. I guess I'm curious how you calculate your average hourly winrate (I'm guessing it would be using this number and ROI). Or say your goal for the day was to play 100 SNGs, how long would that take on average?

[citanul]

ill,

I think the numbers I posted were from a thread discussing the length spent on each one, not average time 'til end.

Hourly rate is going to clearly depend on things like how many tables you play, and the shape of your finish distribution and things like that (or at least be linked to the shape of your finish distribution).

Hourly rate per table played will just be ROI and time per table related.

Don't both sng tracker and pokertracker give you accurate time spent per game numbers?

citanul

[citanul]

Ender,

No need to explain yourself in this thread, in fact, it's best if not to include the sob story /images/graemlins/smile.gif

citanul

[illunious]

Thanks again.

[ QUOTE ]

Don't both sng tracker and pokertracker give you accurate time spent per game numbers?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a newb to tourneys/SNGs, I know there's time data in PT for ring games but I don't see it in the tourney window.

[citanul]

ill,

my 800 chip expert says 35 min to play on avg, i say 5 min more for a 1000 chip game just on principle. if anyone has a large data set they want to throw out there, that's cool, or confirmation of where to find this data in any piece of software, that's cool too.

again, this is going to be very dependent on your finish distribution though. freemoney, for instance, is going to have shorter games on avg because he gambles more earlier.

citanul

[lacky]

They would, but illunious is famous for his 12 table grinding of .5/1 limit for a great win rate. This is the first time ive ever seen him in here.

So, welcome aboard!

the average game length in 1000 chip games is about 40 min. So if you played them continuos, starting one when ever one finished, that is the figure you would use. I haven't played a 800 chip tourney in a while, but i would guess its about 35 min or so.

Most people, myself included, play them in sets, starting 6 or 8 all at the same time, playing them all until done, taking a few min break, then starting the next set. The time to complete a set is about an hour for 1000 chip games (55's and higher) and about 50 min (I'm guessing, used to be 45 before they added a level) for 800 chip games.

Let me know if you need any help with anything.

Steve

Hi citanul
Now I'm 4-tabling on PartyPoker with positive result (so, I'm not exactly a newbie /images/graemlins/wink.gif). I know some people play up to 8 tables simulataniously. PartyPoker allows to have only 1 account and 4 tables open on one computer at a time. How do people play 8 tables? I see 2 possible ways: open 2 accounts from different poker sites on one computer (does it work, by the way?), or use 2 computers playing on one site. For me managing 2 computers seems a little bit harder. Which is most common way of 4+ tabling?
Thank you.

[nate_king1]

Citanul did you move up from the 11s to 22s to 33s to 55s to 109s to 215s? What is your stats for the levels 55s and higher? Do you consider QJs to be a pushing hand 4 handed, button, 150/75 blinds, when you have 2000 chips(800 starting chips, pushing into the chip leader and shortstack).

Thanks, Good post idea.

[citanul]

dsh,

I don't know of anyone who does the 2 computer thing.

Everyone I believe does the 2 sites at once on one machine.

citanul

Thank you, citanul,
and there are 2 related questions
1. What's the best site (sites) for SNG's besides PartyPoker
2. Playing 8 tables, should I see, at least partially, all 8 of them, or some may be hidden for a while.

[illunious]

Just found this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3000104&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#Post3000840) thread. Pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

[ QUOTE ]
They would, but illunious is famous for his 12 table grinding of .5/1 limit for a great win rate. This is the first time ive ever seen him in here.

So, welcome aboard!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I've been playing SSNL the last few months and just recently got into SNGs, on a real good run so far. You can't just quit them whenever you want like a ring game, so I like the fact that they keep me from slacking. I'll probably be posting here alot more in the future.

[nate_king1]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you, citanul,
and there are 2 related questions
1. What's the best site (sites) for SNG's besides PartyPoker
2. Playing 8 tables, should I see, at least partially, all 8 of them, or some may be hidden for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any Skin that has rakeback.

They should not be "overlapped" if you can help it.

[citanul]

dsh,

some random party skin is the best besides party.

the overlap thing is a total preference issue and depends on your monitor(s).

it's certainly possible to play them entirely overlapped, but most prefer not to.

citanul

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you, citanul,
and there are 2 related questions
1. What's the best site (sites) for SNG's besides PartyPoker
2. Playing 8 tables, should I see, at least partially, all 8 of them, or some may be hidden for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. You can sign up for a party skin (empire poker is the most popular). So you can play all 8 on the party network if you want (they might have changed the T&amp;C recently to not allow multiple skin accounts, not sure if you still can).

2. If both of your monitors are 1600x1200 resolution or higher, all 8 will be visible with no overlap.

[mlagoo]

I just read online the blinds are moving at 20 minute intervals. At a live tournament.

Does this mean I am going to need to loosen up pretty early and try and take down a big pot? Blinds start at 25/50, chipstack starts at T5,000.

I feel like playing tight early may be a recipe for getting blinded out of the tournament with the blinds moving at such an absurd speed.

[citanul]

m,

that's pretty fast for a live tournament, but they are starting you pretty deep stacked. i don't know what the full structure is, but it sounds like you'll be able to play pretty tight if you want to. do remember that tight doesn't equal success at live mtts nearly as much as it does at online sngs.

citanul

[Jay36489]

Dear Citanul,

I am on a bit of a bad run, and I am trying to examine my play. I started out at the 55s winning 40 buying over 154 SNGs, but now I've dropped 20 buy ins over the next 135 SNGs. I know this is not a terrible run, and it could be variance, but it might not be. I came over from NL ring and I feel my early level play is at least decent. I have bought SNGPT and I have been going over my bubble play and I seem to be making the right decisions.

Basically my question to you is not "What am I doing wrong?", but "where should I look to find leaks?". If you could point me in the right direction as far as what I may not have considered, I would appreciate it.

[citanul]

Jay,

It seems like you are on the right path w.r.t. where to look for your leaks. Go look at your ptracker stats for the early levels and see if you're actually profitable in the first few levels as you think you are. that would be my first step.

then look at you mid game, as you're saying you looked at your early and late games. also make sure you're not passing up too many good spots in the late game. just because the pushes you make are +ev doesn't necessarilly mean you are not skipping some +ev pushes. that is a big problem for many people starting out, they just don't realize how many pushes are +ev.

when all is said and done, remember your sample size is tiny.

citanul

[Grisgra]

Oops, sorry! Thanks much.

[Jay36489]

Citanul,

Thanks for the response. I have looked at PT for early levels and have even examined what hands, and from what positions I am winning/losing with. I am doing well at lvls 1-4, slight negative at lvl 5, 6 &amp; 7 are good, then its all red from there on out. I have no notable losing hands in the early levels either.

Perhaps I should mention my finish distribution.

1-11.1%
2-12.1%
3-12.8%
4-17.6%
5-13.8%
6-11.8%
7-6.2%
8-8.0%
9-2.8%
10-3.8%

I think I will continue to focus on middle and late play. I have a painful number of 4ths, 5ths and 6ths. It feels like I am just not getting cards in the early levels to build a stack so that I'm not shortstacked going into the bubble. I also seem to find myself in games where people are so aggressive on the bubble, I rarely get the chance to steal. Any further thoughts on what I should look into? Is there a pattern here or is it variance?

[microbet]

wo things have me thinking about $55s vs $109s and $215s. One is Raptor's stats, which were very good in the $55s, but dropped very sharply after that. The other is Eastbay, who did very well at the $55s, went flat at the $109s, but then improved. Perhaps there isn't a huge sample for some of the data, but all over 1000 games. Another thing is some of the Gigabet plays.

Anyway, my current thinking is the the best strategy in the $55s is pretty much ABC STT ICM inspired play. I know that is not very specific, but basically I mean, play well, but don't try too many tricks.

Maybe nothing really needs to be added for the $109s other than broadening some calling ranges when villian's are really likely to broaden their pushing ranges.

I'm thinking for the $215s, though, maybe one or two hands early in the tourney where you pretend you get AA or flop the nuts is needed.

What do you think?

I'm putting this in here because it seems like a good place for a dumb, vague question.

[citanul]

Jay,

For low stakes games, you're honestly not getting into the money enough.

Also, your comment on being slightly negative in those levels is not good. Being negative at those levels is bad. It sounds like you're not opening up your game enough and stealing/pushing enough when the blinds get worthwhile.

citanul

[citanul]

micro,

I believe that every level *can* be beaten using pure ABC and ICM inspired strategy. I know in fact that more than one very successful 200s player does exactly that. Learning to play the late game flawlessly provides a huge edge, even over the average competitor at the 200s.

That said, as you move up, clearly the edge that you gain simply by playing straightforwardly decreases. To add points to your ROI, you begin having to add more plays to your repertoire. Some of these plays shoot variance through the roof, some do not, but just weren't as necessary at the lower levels. Some of them wouldn't work at all in the lower levels. Simple things like needing to know how to bluff are importantish at the 200s, but less important than some think.

I'm not going to mention things like "pretend you have aces, or gigabet plays" beyond this sentence.

Much more success can be found at the 200s and the 100s by doing things like, paying enough attention to pick up free chips when they are sitting there. And without having to do anything incredibly fancy.

With respect to Raptor's results. Well, I know Raptor decently well, I think. I think that when he plays SNGs he hopes to play as roboticly as possible. That means that if I were to have to pick a single person who exemplifies what happens if you play just perfectly straightforwardly with ABC poker without changing your strategy much between levels, it would be him. He might have made some adjustments moving up from the 50s to the 100s to the 200s, but if they were, they clearly didn't add much I think.

I think that honestly, if what you want to do is play somewhat mindlessly, the 50s are where it's at. They have lower variance, the average play is quite bad, etc.

With respect to the "possibly broadening your calling ranges," I'm sure you know enough to know that your calling ranges shouldn't be opening up much in most situations, even if you know they're pushing tons. However, conversely I guess, there are spots where I undercall pushes at higher stakes games because I know it will be much less likely for me to find a good spot to steal soon, where I would fold in a lower stakes game because stealing is much easier.

I hope that's a goodish somewhat vaguish answer to your vaguish question.

citanul

[Jay36489]

Citanul,

I said I was doing well at 1-4, and slightly negative at lvl 5, lvls 6 and 7 were good, and 8+ were negative. It just feels like late in the game is where I just don't feel comfortable in what I'm doing.

Jay

[raptor517]

the difference. in the 215s. is that to be successful, you have to be able to put yer opponent on a push range, and then broaden yer call ranges in response to that. my problem has always been folding too much to pushes. ALWAYS. i simply dont call enough. thats my leak. and im plugging it as we speak. holla

[Slim Pickens]

Jay, Don't worry so much about whether your positive or negative in chips at the higher levels. In levels 1-3, there's rarely a proper play that busts you for a lot of chips, so those levels should always be in the positive. At level 4+, a lot of perfectly reasonable plays bust you (-800 to 1600 chips or so) so small random fluctuations can make huge differences in this number. Imagine playing three tournaments, pushing KQs from the button in Level 5 in all of them, getting called by JTs in all three, and losing all three. That puts you down 3000 or so chips when you were only expecting to win 750 by playing them the way you did.

[nate_king1]

[ QUOTE ]
Citanul did you move up from the 11s to 22s to 33s to 55s to 109s to 215s? What is your stats for the levels 55s and higher? Do you consider QJs to be a pushing hand 4 handed, button, 150/75 blinds, when you have 2000 chips(800 starting chips, pushing into the chip leader and shortstack).

Thanks, Good post idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

[microbet]

I'm sure you'll pwn.

[citanul]

nate,

At this time I don't care to divulge my statistics or my life story, I'm sorry.

In the situation you described, you should not push QJs.

citanul

[nate_king1]

[ QUOTE ]
nate,

At this time I don't care to divulge my statistics or my life story, I'm sorry.

In the situation you described, you should not push QJs.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold then? Limp? 3BB?

[citanul]

nate,

depends on other factors that you didn't give me. open folding can't be wrong by much.

citanul

[KramerTM]

If I am not cutting at now at the 33s and 55s. Will I ever be able to cut it at the 55s and 109s? (Read: Should I keep working at my game and aspire to play at those levels, or settle for a 20% ROI at the 22s)?

[citanul]

Kramer,

With hard work, things come.

Did you start winning at the 22s just by sitting down one day? Or was there hard work involved with that?

There's no great reason to be discouraged about your performance so far (there might be, but I haven't read it yet I guess if there is), you're learning. If success at one level assured players of success at the next level, we'd wind up with a whole lot of winners at the highest stakes games.

No, you shouldn't be worried, and if you're hard working and intelligent (this might be optional) you will be able to make your success continue through the stakes.

Amongst the other questions you should ask yourself is:

If you are going to "settle for 20% at the 20s" is that really worth your time?

citanul

[KramerTM]

I am a hardworker (well, at least when it comes to poker) and as far as I know I am well above the mean when it comes to intelligence (don't read this as an arrogant statement... actually, whatever, it might be).

I guess that begs the next question... were some people just noit born to 4-table? My ROI seems to always take a nice kick in the ass when I have 4 tables opened at once. And I'd also venture to guess that my success at the trailing 2 tables (the last 2 tables that are opened by themselves because I plan to call it a night after them) is about twice as good as my success otherwise.

[bluewilde]

aight, ATs on the button in lvl 1 (and I suppose lvl 2 as well), is there any raise that I can call (namely, a minraise or a 3BB raise). I assume no but wanted to ask. Clearly if there's much action after the raise, I'm out. But if it's folded to CO or CO-1 and he minraises, do I dump my ATs? What if I'm in a blind, so it's cheaper but I'm OOP. Is AJs/o a call?

[citanul]

Blue,

Hands like the ones you talk about are interesting ones.

Particularly the medium suited aces. In multiway pots, you aren't going to lose a lot of you can play them. Similarly, in pots that may or may not be heads up to the flop, you're going to learn a lot about playing post flop if you put these hands in your mix. But if you can't learn to play them profitably, you should throw them away. There's some raisers that it's worse to enter pots against with hands like these, and particularly EP raises you should probably just fold to.

In general though, if there's a donkey, you should try to play more pots with him, especially while in position, that you can get into fairly cheaply, and possibly get his stack before anyone else does. This is an undervalued aspect of SNG strategy.

You will be able to win though, if you just fold these hands to any raise.

citanul

[KramerTM]

What if you don't even limp with them in Levels 1 and 2? I've been routinely folding anything worse than AQo in Levels 1 and 2. AJs... mucked. KQs... mucked. Even an occasional AQo mucked in early position. This is how Elektrik (Mike) taught me to play. But then again, he's played with me in a live game before and may not havwe too much faith in my post-flop play.

[citanul]

Kramer,

You should be able to beat the low stakes SNGs playing like that, yes.

If Mike told you something, it's likely very true.

citanul

[Blindcurve]

I understand that this forum has a tried and true methodology, especially for games as obstensibly simple as the 5+1 and the 10+1's. Nonetheless I thought I'd ask:

Is there no one (with mad skillz and a commensurate bankroll) who advocates taking early risk with pot odds to try to get a larger stack early? So that one is not reaching the 50/100 round with 10BB's and having to push AT from the CO into the chip leader who calls with 22? It just seems like you would want to get chips early and continue to hammer on the rest of the table and put them in situations where *they* have to make uncomfortable plays. Ever since I started using the guidelines of this forum, I find myself alive but short (10 BB or less) in the 3rd or 4th level, considering an all-in move with a less than stellar holding. I hate gambling with my whole stack.

I MUST, without question, be fundamentally misunderstanding how to approach these games.

FOITNOF,

-D.

Disclaimer: I'm running bad. It is entirely possible that my downswing and my finding Aleomagus' post are coinincidental and not causally related.

[valenzuela]

I always have the feelign I suck at poker. How do I get better without reading a book?
I cant read a book for two reasons:
a)I dont want to withdraw my money until IM 18 becuase I was already screwed with $130.( Ill create a new account ,tranfer my money and withdraw it.)
b)I dont have the courage to ask my dad to buy me a poker book.

[jgunnip]

Transfer a 2+2er $$, they could buy the book for you and SHIP IT!

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
I always have the feelign I suck at poker. How do I get better without reading a book?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read this. (http://www.winningonlinepoker.com/)

And this. (http://www.playwinningpoker.com/)

[imported_metrognome7]

PT does not support FullTilt hand histories currently, and as such I've been working lately to record and track my play tendencies through the ol' paper-n-pencil method. My problem is, I...
(a) don't know if I'm concentrating on the right things, and
(b) don't know if I'm calculating VP$IP correctly.

Therefore:

&lt;1&gt; Does one consider small blind completion as part of VP$IP?

&lt;2&gt;Does a checked BB count towards overall hand total in terms of VP$IP?

For example: if I check a BB, complete a SB, and limp in on the button, is my VP$IP 1 of 3, 2 of 3, 1 of 2, 2 of 2, or 1 of 1?

&lt;3&gt; What are the most important stats calculable on-paper by a math donk? VP$IP, PF Raise %, and....?

Thanks,
Adam

[curtains]

Kramer you might want to try 4 tabling at the lowest possible stakes for a long while until you are finally comfortable. The increase in future earn will be well worth it. If you try it out at low stakes, then even if it doesn't work out, you haven't lost much money in the process.

[jgunnip]

1) yes
2) no, since its not voluntary
3) easily done on paper, ITM, ROI, and also finish position. Most other stats that you might be looking to see from PT would require you to keep track of nearly every hand on paper...hardly worth it imo no matter how much of a stat freak you may be. Since by the time you'll amass anything of statistical meaning you'll have papers to the ceiling. Also, a lot of posters don't put too much stock into PT stats when it comes to STT since a lot of your actions, and all when it gets to late game, will be dependent on position, chip stack, opponents chip stack, and blind levels which are hard to easily quantify.

[KramerTM]

Good advice. I actually think I got better at it and haven't realized it. I used to get flustered. But today I was 4-tabling the $55s on Empire while 2-tabling the PPM Satellites on PP. I was doing OK. I really think I'm growing here!

[ChipWrecked]

Hey Adam. I can't answer your question, I'm just shouting out because I have family around Roseville.

[Wyrm2]

2 questions, both of them kinda general as I work my way through the 10s.

1) I run into the most trouble playing when I am up against calling stations. I occasionally get down to 4 or 5 people left and can't steal the blinds because someone is always calling, either behind me or calling on one of the blinds. Obviously, this is ok if I get some decent hands, but is there anything I can do if my hands suck, or do I have to just push and hope?

2) When stealing a blind on the bubble (say 50/100) blinds and everyone at about 1400-1600, how aggressive should I be with continuation bets if I am called. I tend to be fairly aggressive after the flop in that situation, but I tend to get trapped and/or reraised when I do this.

What is Party Poker's offical stance on PokerTracker. Is it allowed?

[citanul]

Wyrm,

A) If you've known someone is a calling station you've had all tournament to value bet at them. If it's late and you're still short, you need to do a combined strategy of stealing when that guy isn't in the pot if possible, pushing your good hands, and waiting for him to bust other people who will be needing to get aggressive.

B) This question depends. With your stack where it is, you shouldn't be opening all that many pots honestly, and when you do you should be comfortable playing them post flop. Continuation bets are something you just have to get a feel for when to do and when not to do.

citanul

[citanul]

chripe,

I believe at the moment their official stance is that it's ok.

citanul

[cadillac1234]

From 40 $6 SNGs-Small sample size but would like some early feedback before I move up to the $11s

43% ITM
--------
20% 1st
8% 2nd
15% 3rd
-------
Bubble
-------
4th 6%
5th 9%
--------
Rest 42% but...
20% 8th /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Self-Analysis
My SH play has been pretty good and I've taken a couple of beats holding dominate hands for third place finishes so it could have been better

Bubble play has been decent but getting to the bubble has been the problem...

The 20% bustout at 8th means I'm playing too many hands early on. I've been trying to play only top card/overcard pairs post flop but I may be playing them too fast for too much $. Pre-Flop 3-6x BB raises and pot size post-flop raises seem to get little respect and I end up down signifigant amounts early if top pair doesn't hold...

Should I let the donks knock each other out but build big stacks and be happy arriving 5 handed near the buy-in amount or keep playing aggressive early and deal wth a lot of early busts?

[citanul]

cadillac,

a) your sample size is insignificant
b) your itm is &gt;40%
c) your 1st% is 20%

don't worry about anything in your game, just move up to the 10s. don't draw any stupid conclusions about what you are doing wrong with your play because you had what, 8 8ths?

sheesh.

let's see, yesterday, i played 48 games and i ... had 8 5ths! 10 3rds! 6 8ths!

i'm sure you see the point. even if you'd played 1000 games, having 20% of 8ths wouldn't be a problem if you were still hitting the itm and roi numbers you are.

citanul

[dumb ox]

I'm putting this in this newbie column because I'm sure it's been asked and answered an hundred times before.

22s, 5 handed, big blind 50. Folded to me in small blind with 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif and 460 in chips.
Big blind seems neither loose nor tight, has 2000 in chips.
I push.
Good or bad? If bad, would it be good if blinds were 50/100?

Thanks

[Pasterbator]

I know this has been asked time and time again, but i couldnt find it after searching for 20 minutes. So could someone link me to the thread where many of the professional (big name) poker players' usernames are listed.

Thanks

Jason

[Womble]

I have never played SnGs before but have got bored of ring games(0.5/1, 1/2 6max and full experiance). I have not been playing that much recently becuase I find it too boring. I used to really like poker and want to get into SnGs to see if that changes my mind /images/graemlins/smile.gif

How would I go about learning SnGs and what amount of money should I set out for this? What levels and where to play? I dont want to fork out on a book just yet although I have heard good things about 'harringtons' SnG book.

Any advice?

[rydazzle]

Thanks Citanul, I also saw the equation in the FAQ...

My idea of "fold equity" was pretty wacked: say you have 1000 chips left and there is N in the pot where N &gt; 1000. If you fold, 1000 is your "fold equity" and relates to your overall chances of cashing relative to other opponents. So, if you push, if the P(winning pot by showdown)*N should be &gt; 1000 to make pushing a better play that keeping your "fold equity".

dont ask me where I got this idea of fold equity, but please have yourself a good laugh /images/graemlins/wink.gif I understand the definition now, and have relied on that concept heavily in post-processing SNGs...just never put it with the correct term.

[Misfire]

Womble,
2+2 is a great place to learn about sng's. Other than Harrington, I haven't heard of any other books that are as highly recommended as this site. As for cheap places to play, UltimateBet has $1+.10 games to get you started.

[drapes]

Which sites are the most rigged?

I say Party.

TIA.

[Dave G.]

okay, I have thought of a couple of preflop questions which I'm sure are very basic here but I suspect they play very differently in cash games. So please let me know what you guys think.

Example 1
4 limpers to me in the BB. Assume 7 players, blinds of 50/100 and stacks between 1400 - 2100, my stack is about 1700. I look down to see KJs. In a cash game, this is a very easy value raise, but what do I do about this here? I'll be out of position for the whole hand, so I'm not sure I should be trying to build a big pot with a hand that, if it misses the flop, is in trouble. Do I check, or do I raise a substantial amount to try and get some of the limpers out?

Example 2
Same situation as before. 7 handed, blinds 50/100, stacks between 1400 - 2100. This time I'm the short stack. I catch 77 UTG. Do I try and flop a set or just fold? Or even raise? This could turn into a big hand but I'm not sure I can spare the chips to see a flop.

Any advice is appreciated, along with any other general preflop tips. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Which sites are the most rigged?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if anyone's ever heard of this one, but i'll throw it out there anyways... JetSet

[Grisgra]

Assume that you're pretty sure you're a winning player, 20-40% ROI or so. How many buy-ins do you need in your bankroll to avoid a non-trivial Risk O' Ruin?

[citanul]

dumb,

I believe that that's a bad push. You've got 10xbb and your hand stinks. The 75 chips isn't going to be worth that much to you. Wait for *something* better.

citanul

[fnord_too]

Some Technical Quesions:

When I finally get into the royal flush club on Empire and get the monthly reload bonus, will I need to clear that with ring games?

How long do the potential extra chips for the PPM tounies last?

Just how many tounies do you have to play to have a shot at the top ten monthly SNG TLB? Does playig the 100's just kill your chances?

Oppinion quesions:

My goal is to 8 table the 200's eventually. I can 8 table the 50's right now, but I think my rate is just as good 4 tabling the 100's. Do you think a better strategy is to 8 table the 50's, improving my multi-tasking, or 4 tabling the 100's, improving my play faster and learning the different playing style and getting hands on people who will more likely be my future opponens? Right now I have 100 buy ins in my dedicated SNG role for the 50's, which means 50 for the 100's. I think the 100's are the way to go, but I'm not married to the idea.

If you use a HUD, do you look at the current blinds only? At the 50's this is useless since the player pool is so large. At the 200's it may not be after you get enough hands in.

[citanul]

drapes,

whichever one dutch boyd runs at any given point. they're all rigged to give him all the players' bankrolls.

citanul

[citanul]

Dave,

Are you playing limit, or NL SNGs?

I'm not a very good NL ring player, but in a cash game NL game, I don't think that KJs is a "Very easy value raise." Especially not on teeeny tiiiiny stacks, then again, in a cash game I'm assuming you wouldn't have teeeny tiiiiny stacks. But still.

In a tournament, it's somewhat advisable to push preflop in hand 1, due to the fact that no one has shown strength, and there's a big pile of dead chips out there for the taking. Your cards don't matter much, but it doesn't hurt that they're pretty good.

In hand 2, I just fold. Your stack is nice-ish, and your hand is not going to play nicely out of position or post flop at all unless you flop a set. I don't like limping 1/14 of my stack to hope to see a flop as the short stack in spots like this, so limping isn't an option. Similarly, your hand just isn't that great, so I don't like raising, and pushing is clearly not an option.

citanul

[citanul]

Gris,

Between 30 and 50 are commonly thrown around as the numbers for the levels where 20-40% is believed to be attainable. In the faq there's a link to the variance FAQ, (which while I don't agree with all of it, contains some good stuff), and recently valenzuela posted something reasonable about risk of ruins with various stats, sadly I don't have time right now to find that, but it was this week.

citanul

[ChipWrecked]

This is more a statement than a question, but it might be good for n00bs to know.

I don't have much time to play or bankroll due to a young family, but:

Playing the UB $5.50 SNG's (non-turbo) in very tight cash-game NL style will almost certainly get you heads-up. From there, I play aggressive heads-up strategy pretty much from HEPFAP.

Just what works for me with minimal risk.

Geez citanul, nice work. Don't get carpal tunnel, man.

Edit: These are the six-seaters.

Started in the Half-Life, Counterstrike Community. Probally about 5-6 years ago. Great game.

Origin of -PWNED-

[Dave G.]

Ah, I play NL SnGs. KJs is about the minimum hand I would raise from this position for value.

Thanks for the advice. I'd never really thought about pushing into the field like that from the BB until it gets short handed. I can see this would be profitable though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kama45]

Assuming a 40% ITM and a 30% ROI at the the $20's (my current goals), what type of place distribution would I need and how do I calculated it? Thanks!

[rydazzle]

Ok, have another one. I know Ive read this before in one of my many books...wish they came in PDF so I could search. crap.

Full table, early, so stack is &gt;&gt; BB. I am in the BB with TT/JJ so I am out of position after the flop. I have picked JJ and TT since they are the a b**** to play post-flop. 1 player raises early/mid 2-3xBB, folds to me in BB.

I would like to re-raise, pretty big, but I am not sure b/c of my bad position. do I see where I stand here with a re-raise or call hoping for a flop where the texture is favorable for a probe bet? How do I play this differently if I were on the button with position after the flop?

Thanks C, I know the newb posts are work for you...appreciated.

Thanks for the invitation for newbie questions.

One day I may know enough to ask an intelligent question about strategy, but for now....

What are the rules or limitations about the stuff one can wear at a live casino game? I am really talking about the stuff that attempts to hide one's appearance or reactions or distract one's opponent (funny glasses, masks, etc.)

What about limits on bringing electronics to the table? It may look like an I-pod, but maybe someone is whispering advice through those earplugs.

thanks.

[citanul]

ry,

jj and tt are tricky hands.

you can play them however makes you comfortable and fits your style, honestly.

reraising in heads up pots is going to put you in an awkward position post flop, as many (jj) and most (tt) flops will contain overcards that will make you have to play post flop out of position. at the lower stakes there's clearly something to be said for just pushing preflop, as you're often going to get called by worse hands even on the first level. most people i think like to just call in this spot, and get the money in post flop if it looks recommendable. additionally, jsut calling means that on say, a Q high flop your probe bet is going to be cheaper if you decide to bet out and slow down post getting raised or called.

if you're on the button, you can afford to play this more aggressively, and might want to in order to not offer great odds to the blinds to come in, espeically with the cheap blinds and raise sizes. some people still like just calling raises in LP with TT and JJ. it depends on how well you feel with your post flop play, and what you think of the original raiser.

citanul

[citanul]

Jedi,

I believe that clothes wise you're allowed to obscure yourself as much as you want at most casinos these days.

with respect to electronics, this depends on casino as well. Arieh was allowed to use a laptop and play online poker while playing recently... The WSOP disallowed all electronics this year... so as you can see, there's not much uniformity.

citanul

[microbet]

I could be wrong, but I think the push on hand 1 is better in a cash game than in a tourney.

As for pushing in a tourney, I think it is dramatically better to pwn limpers at the middle buyins than the lower ones. I don't know about the higher buyins. It's possible too many limpers are trapping, but I suspect there are still plenty of weak limps.

[citanul]

kama,

There's approximately a zillion ways to have a given ROI with a given ITM, so yeah, you can't exactly figure out what percentage you need, just one at a time, since there's different ways of accomplishing it. For instance, here's a formula for how to do it assuming equal 1sts, 2nds, and 3rds, that can also be a good way of figuring out how to look at this stuff:

Net Cash = - buyins + winnings
Net Cash = -[(stakes + rake)(# games)] + (Stakes)[#1sts x 5 + #2nds x 3 = #3rds x 2]

Net Cash/[(Stakes + rake)(#games)] = ROI
And let #1sts = #2nds = #3rds = M, 3M = #ITMs, #ITMs/Games = ITM%

ROI = -1 + (Stakes)[#1sts x 5 + #2nds x 3 = #3rds x 2]/[(Stakes + rake)(#games)]

ROI = -1 + (Stakes)[10M/(Stakes+rake)(games)]
ROI = -1 + (Stakes)(10/3)ITM/(Stakes+Rake)

For the lower stakes sngs, we can assume that (Stakes)/(Stakes + Rake) = 10/11

ROI = -1 + (10/11)(10/3)ITM
ROI = -1 + 100/33(ITM)

Which is very, very close, but not quite,
ROI = -1 + 3ITM, which is probably more intuitive than i gave it credit for, since you could have just come up with this using a whole lot less math... =(

So clearly the ITM that breaks even if you have a even distribution is 33%.

If you want to hit ROI = 30% with even distribution, you have to get to...
(1.3)/3=43.3%

You can use one of the top formulae and some of the assumptions that I listed here (like the 10/11 thing) to make a pretty simple formula like this one that is able to spit out numbers like this for different shapes. But in general, meh. It's not like you can "set a goal to have an itm % of 17%/15%/13%" or something you know?

citanul

[citanul]

micro,

i dunno, personally i wouldn't play a cash game where the deepest stack at the table is in the mid 20s in bbs. i don't think many people find such a game spread anywhere...

as for pwning limpers, yeah, i think it's less good at the lower stakes, but i think that at the lower stakes there's a good shot you just flat out have the best hand. if not, even though many times someone's going to call with like 44, you're getting a big overlay, and sometimes at the low stakes they somehow manage to find the fold button.

clearly at higher stakes and mid stakes games you have to be more wary of limp trappers, but that's sort of implied. i don't really feel like explaining all the details of a semi-PVS play everytime i recommend it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

citanul

[illunious]

A couple questions:

1. Is it correct to steal with a minraise (I've been doing this around 50/100-100/200 blinds) if it doesn't pot commit you and the blinds are willing to fold to a minraise?

2. Is the format Party uses for SNGs, where blinds sometimes get skipped when someone is busted the correct way to do it in a home game? I think it's when the button gets busted and you would be BB next hand, you're SB instead, and sometimes there is a lone BB that gets button next hand.

[citanul]

ill,

when you're trying to steal, why use any more chips than you absolutely have to?
if you're sure that they'll fold to a minraise the same % of the time that they'll fold to a push, then minraise away!

as for home game structures, well, there's lots of different rules people like to use, and almost no one thinks that party's are "correct." different rules make more sense depending on how you do your blind structure, but most home games i've been to either use a dead button, a button that posts a blind, or some variation like they use on party. find something that everyone in your home game can agree on, and make that the rule. i especially like the rule "when a player is eliminated, everyone drinks."

citanul

[Pat Southern]

How high of an ROI can a good sng player expect in the $30-$50 sngs?

Edit: I'm currently trying out sngs 5-tabling them, does ROI dramatically decrease as I increase # of tables?

[microbet]

I was thinking I shouldn't really have tried to debate it in this thread anyway, since you have more than enough work responding to each question. Please don't bother replying to this post.

For future reference, you don't have to smiley face me. I've only smiley faced a few times in my life and something inside me dies everytime I do.

[citanul]

Pat,

A good player will I believe achieve somewhere in the high teens to mid twenties in terms of ROI. I believe an excellent player will achieve somewhere between the mid to high twenties and the mid thirties.

citanul

[citanul]

micro,

=(

citanul

ps: debate is fine, if i say something stupid or even debatable, please do try to fix me up. i'm hoping that other people will participate even more than they already have in answering the questions posted in this thread. you guys have been a good help so far, but the title of this one isn't "ask citanul any newbie questions." i'm just hoping to answer a lot of them, maybe condense a bunch of them down to a new chunk of FAQ, and save some space time continuum for strategy threads that people would rather see or something.

[citanul]

Fnord,

I haven't got a clue about the technical questions you asked, sorry =(

I'd play some 100s, 4 tabling, if I were you, as my next step.

I don't think that HUDs are useful for SNGs, sadly.

citanul

Hi guys, Im looking for an honest piece of advice with regards to my playing habits.

I am currently playing 5.50$ SNG tournys and have been very successful. I am relatively new to online poker but have been playing regularly off the internet for quiet some time.
I have recorded all my stats since beginning to play online and have an ITM of 0.72 and an ROI of 0.82 in approx 60 games (I know it is a very small sample size)
but I have not yet committed to moving up into the 10+1 or higher since I am very comfortable with the extra spending money that the 5+.5 has afforded /images/graemlins/smile.gif
My bankroll is certainly ready to move up, but I am not sure of how much better the level of play is. I know it will be a leap and I am fine with that, but will my total profits go down significantly when I initially move up?

[Kama45]

Thanks for taking the time to asnwer in such detail!

[citanul]

pace,

You're making $4.50 a sng, at $5.50 a buyin. That's good stuff. Some would say most likely unsustainably high, but hey, maybe you've found some new cash cow of a site where such statistics are sustainable. Most likely though, you're running hot. I'd say well, while you're still getting your feet wet, keep on playing the game you're in.

When the results normalize (if they do) You'll probably be looking at something closer to 2 bucks a tournament than 4, and you'll probably want to move up to the 10s. The competition at most sites is similar between the two levels, and while the extra money of 2 bucks per is nice, the extra money of 4 per is nice and well, more reasonably attained at the 10s.

The reason to move up in stakes should be (beyond just entertainment or whatnot) to make more money. In general, if you're playing for money, and you reach a point that you believe you can't make more by moving up, and you're not happy with the amount of money you're making, you either need to work harder, or find a new hobby.

You should be able to make more per sng at the 10s than at th e 5s, when the results normalize.

citanul

[ QUOTE ]
I am currently playing 5.50$ SNG tournys and have been very successful. I have not yet committed to moving up into the 10+1 or higher since I am very comfortable with the extra spending money that the 5+.5 has afforded /images/graemlins/smile.gif
My bankroll is certainly ready to move up, but I am not sure of how much better the level of play is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I recently moved up to 10+1 (on Stars), and there's little difference. The two differences I've observed are:
(1) calling stations aren't quite as bad, i.e. you can actually make some (but not all) people fold when they have nothing, by raising!
(2) the maniacs take a bit longer to knock each other out, so it won't be as short handed as you're used to at 50/100 blinds onwards. As I recall it, 50/100 would be pretty much on the bubble in a 5.50, whereas you're more likely to be 5-6 handed in a 10+1, and occasionally worse (even 8 handed).

But in terms of people's starting hand requirements (complete trash) and the range of hands you can expect to call your all-ins (all manner of absolute garbage) it's pretty much the same.

One more for you Citanul,

Is it ever reasonable to over call three all-in bets with pocket QQs on a rainbow flop of 2,7,10?

I was chip leader (3200) with aprrox 2x what everyone else had and raised pre-flop 300 from the button, was called by 4 players.
On the flop of 2,7,10 rainbow I raised 500$ and was called by all 4 players! (WTF they were thinking... I don;t know)
anyways, I put one on pocket 10s and on a useless turn 3, I folded to three all-in calls.

It turns out the best hand was a 10, 6, and he hit his 2 pair on the river.... But geez, it was just stupid poker...

[citanul]

pacecar,

this all depends on your competition.

i don't know what the standard of competition is at the 5.5s on stars, it seems like it's possible you had a call there, but i dunno.

it sounds like on the flop your lead out bet was way too small though.

you say you had 3200 and the most anyone else had was about 1600, and that the pot going to the flop is like 1500. your lead out bet of 500 is just too small. just go all in there and if someone has you beat well then you're at the same stack as everyone except the guy who wins the hand.

citanul

[outofstep]

I'm not sure how to play these situations. The blinds are 50/100. Everyone folds to the SB who completes. Hero is BB. What range of hands should Hero raise/push with? How do circumstances such as SB's style, his stack size, and blind sizes affect hand ranges to push with? Thanks.

[citanul]

out,

uh, this question is way too nebulous to even attempt to make an answer.

too much depends on the factors you listed, as well as one you didn't mention: HERO's stack size...

citanul

[Vasquez]

Citanul,
Where is your avatar from?

-vas

[citanul]

Vasquez,

It's from a Magic the Gathering card called Citanul Druid.

citanul

Please expound on the difference in play for regular and turbo PS games. I can't believe "tight is right" as an absolute for the first four levels...before u know you could be shortstacked going into the higher levels kinda hanging there w/ no betting leverage. Thanks.

[citanul]

EC,

If you wait so long you no longer have any leverage, you've waited too long.

The difference in my mind is that the normal stars sngs have more room to "play poker" because at the lower blinds levels you will get in more hands, while you still have room in your stack to play post flop. Meanwhile, the turbos play much closer to the party sngs, with the late game play far dominating early game play. The regular games are more "fun" for people who want to play "poker."

citanul

[Nacarno]

What kind of difference in ROI can a player expect between Party and Stars? To clarify, I'm specifically interested in the normal Stars SNGs vs Party. I would assume that with more play due to bigger stacks and slower levels a higher ROI might be more achievable at Stars. I'm not sure how the 10 vs 9 players might affect things.

As a follow up, these factors on Stars would also seem to lower variance so does this affect the sample size needed to determine your true ROI?

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of difference in ROI can a player expect between Party and Stars? To clarify, I'm specifically interested in the normal Stars SNGs vs Party. I would assume that with more play due to bigger stacks and slower levels a higher ROI might be more achievable at Stars. I'm not sure how the 10 vs 9 players might affect things.

As a follow up, these factors on Stars would also seem to lower variance so does this affect the sample size needed to determine your true ROI?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most players, myself included, are more worried about $/hour than ROI. If you want to play for first and get more wins etc, then Stars is the way to go. If you want to make more money, then Party. Just my opinion.

[illunious]

When is it correct to just call in the small blind when it's folded around?

I have done it during 10/15 blinds, or with a loose-passive big stack in the BB and a marginal HU hand like J8o, or a monster hand with a very aggressive player in the BB.

Are these good spots to do it? Am I correct to assume it should be a very rare play? I see it all the time so I am wondering if I should be doing it more.

[citanul]

these seem like great spots to do it, yes. doing it in many other spots when you think you're against a weak but "likes to see flops" type player is also a fine spot. personally i think i used to do this too much, but hey, it does let you see some more cheap flops.

citanul

[swiftrhett]

I just started 8 tabling by loading all 8 pretty much up at once. I hear people play in "sets" and continuously. What are the preferred methods? I think it would be better maybe for me to load up sets of 4 and stagger them, so I can concentrate better on only 4 at the higher levels.

[citanul]

swift,

most people do one of the following:

1) load up all the tables at once and then don't load any more til all those are done
2) load up all the tables at once and then open new ones as you bust out of old ones.

whatever works for you.

citanul

[CaptSensible]

Thanks /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm sure there's a way for me to view all of the threads that I have posted in, but i can't figure it out...Thanks for any help /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[citanul]

leonard,

click your own name to the left of your post, then click "view all user's posts"

citanul

[bluewilde]

*Whoops* Too slow

[ QUOTE ]
click your own name to the left of your post, then click "view all user's posts"

[/ QUOTE ]

it's actually "show all user's posts"

lol, jk, thanks for the help.

Citanul,

I am new to the site. I been playing online for about 2 years now mostly $2/4 limit at Party. I recently started playing party $11 and $22 SNGs. I am a limit player and just learning NL and Tournaments. I was wondering if the limit SNGs are profitable and why there doesn't seem to be much discussion of that game here. Thanks in advance for your input.

[citanul]

ka,

they are indeed profitable.

they are less common and less popular, as well as less absolutely methodical, than the nl sngs. the learning curve is sort of steeper too (you kinda have to know how to play limit holdem), but mostly it's because it's much less popular amongst the general population of the earth, which means that the games run less frequently that means they are less popular here.

citanul

[golfcchs]

When I hear about people multi tableing SNG's in sets what are they doing? Is this all at once or spaced out?

[microbet]

8 tabling in sets means starting up 8 tables and playing until they are all done, without adding more tables.

8 tabling continuously means at least attempting to keep 8 games going the whole time you are playing, so you replace any game that you bust out of.

[golfcchs]

how do people deal with 8 tabling if you get them all to the bubble. I mean if you start 8 tables at about the same time when it gets to the bubble it has to be pretty hard to keep up. Thanks for the answer though.

[microbet]

When I first tried 2 tabling, it was difficult at times. Now I am 5-tabling, handle it very easily and am ready to add tables when I get more hardware. Of course I can't pay as much attention to the hands I'm not involved in, but there is more $/hr this way and as long as you don't add tables too fast it's fun.

I have been reading the boards for a while and mainly, all I play are the SNG's @ PStars. I'm not setting the world on fire nor am I looking to. Playing for me at this point is more about fun than anything else (and if I can pick up some cash here and there great). The flip side is, no one likes to lose! I play the $5 SNG's, and I do ok. My ROI is not high, but my ITM is close to 40%. No this is not based on several thousand SNG's (this is for fun, like a hobbie and I don't want to lose my house, car or wife over it).

I recently set up Poker Tracker and really started delving into the database trying to figure stuff out. One of the things that caught my eye was my seeing flop percentage. I am @ 38%. From other threads that I have seen, this is low (more of a question than a statement, comments?). So what I have been trying to add to my game is more limping in. What I want is some feedback on limping and what the best hands are; suited, connected, or what? Seems like when I do limp in, that I am picking the worst possible moments.

No, I have not read any books yet. I think if I were to buy any, my adorable wife would think I am completely nuts, b/c I am playin quite a bit. But I DO plan to. Any advice on a good starter book? I don't want anything so advanced that I can't read or make sense of. Believe me, even with the FAQ explanations, some terms and figures, give me nightmares.

Lastly, PStars or Party Poker? I have only looked at the 'play' money Party, and didn't like it all that much. I see alot of reference to the Party Poker sight in this forum though (which makes me want to stay @ PStars even more /images/graemlins/wink.gif ).

Thanks for the advice in advance!

[citanul]

tx,

the see flop % you have is in fact quite high in relation to basically everone on this forum. 38% of hands is a TON of hands. most people don't even have voluntary put in pot %s that high. and you don't see the flop every time you put in money voluntarilly!

in terms of books, HEPFAP, TPFAP, HOH1+2 are good. (see faq to figure out what those are!) though this forum is the best. if you don't understand something, just ask! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

if you want to play as a hobby, play at the site you like the best, for whatever reason it is. it really doesn't matter.

citanul

I wanted to respond by including my last hand that really ticced me off, but I won't....

Thanks for the advice. Before I posted, I forgot that you weren't big on limpin in....

I do appreciate it as I read in another post (somewhere) about a 60% seein flop, and one poster said that was high and looked for it to be around 42% I believe... Can't find the thread or remember the exact numbers. But I know it made mine look lower.

Based solely on the comments though, so I should play tighter? I did read the guide that was previously posted about a formula for play on Party. Tried to follow it, got killed in level 5. AND, since you brought up the Vol$ in, what should that be? I'd hate to post mine after your mention.... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks again......

[citanul]

the vol put money in number is really dependent on a lot of different things. notably, due to the way sngs work, it should be way higher late in the game than early. so a composite that just tells you the overall stat for the whole game is pretty meaningless.

i'm not sure about this seen flop thing. i mean, are you actually seeing 1/2 of all flops?

are you playing heads up or something? omaha?

citanul

[nWirb]

Are oreos really that good that people make them out to be?
I live in Sweden where they are not widely accesible and I've never had the pleasure of consuming one.

[citanul]

nwirb,

this is not the "ask anything" post, it is for asking questions related to poker and or this forum.

however, since i'm still awake for some reason:

oreos are really that good. they must be, or no one would put up with the extra extra extra deadly form of fat they use in the cream filling.

citanul

[nWirb]

Thanks for the answer =)

I'm still awake too.. Only problem is that it is 10:30 am here. I really really suck at sleeping.

From Poker Tracker it says I am seeing 39.51%, for all hands. Flop not in a blind, 28.74%.

hehe.... It also tells me I have a very passive aggression factor as well, pre-flop.


Vol$ in pot is less than the saw flop number....

Ok, so how do I avoid this, and did I do right? After the flop, I don't think I really had a choice there because of the stack size:

Seat 1: antonrc (995 in chips)
Seat 2: smeegs (1195 in chips)
Seat 4: NEELIE (1285 in chips)
Seat 5: haeynous (2665 in chips)
Seat 6: mnfishman (1095 in chips)
Seat 8: newfie1974 (5365 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero (900 in chips)
newfie1974: posts small blind 25
Hero: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [8c 8h]
antonrc: calls 50
smeegs: folds
NEELIE: folds
haeynous: folds
mnfishman: folds
newfie1974: calls 25
Hero: raises 100 to 150
antonrc: calls 100
newfie1974: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ah Jd 8s]
Hero: bets 750 and is all-in
antonrc: calls 750
*** TURN *** [Ah Jd 8s] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [Ah Jd 8s 2c] [Kd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO: shows [8c 8h] (three of a kind, Eights)
antonrc: shows [Qc Th] (a straight, Ten to Ace)

[Bluff Daddy]

wtf is your question, avoid what??? going in as a huge fav. and getting sucked out on?? 1. quit playing poker 2. hang yourself

Well at least you let me know I made the right play...

But damn, kill myself.... After being sucked out on so many times, especially someone like myself who is trying to better their game and gain a finer understanding overall, one begins to question certain aspects.... Sorry if I am not at the level you are, but again, this is why I posted in the 'Newbie' thread.....

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
Well at least you let me know I made the right play...

But damn, kill myself.... After being sucked out on so many times, especially someone like myself who is trying to better their game and gain a finer understanding overall, one begins to question certain aspects.... Sorry if I am not at the level you are, but again, this is why I posted in the 'Newbie' thread.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. You played this correct except...your PF raise. Otherwise, bad beat. It happens.

[jgunnip]

[ QUOTE ]
From Poker Tracker it says I am seeing 39.51%, for all hands. Flop not in a blind, 28.74%.

hehe.... It also tells me I have a very passive aggression factor as well, pre-flop.


Vol$ in pot is less than the saw flop number....

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean to say you Seen Flop % is higher than your VP$IP % that would be correct since you see many flops in teh BB where you don't voluntarily put chips in.

[Bluff Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Well at least you let me know I made the right play...

But damn, kill myself.... After being sucked out on so many times, especially someone like myself who is trying to better their game and gain a finer understanding overall, one begins to question certain aspects.... Sorry if I am not at the level you are, but again, this is why I posted in the 'Newbie' thread.....

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously nobody is at my "level" after 10 beers, im sorry but damn I got all in aa v. kk and the board was a22kk did I play it wrong? how would you answer that...

So I was really curious about the PF raise, which was answered already. Thought I might be able to take the pot down right there b/c of the stack in the BB.

Again
me = newbie
thread = newbie

Sorry if it seemed mundane to you. Like I said, after sooo many suck outs, one starts to get more curious! Was it my play or the idiota caller! My instincts were right and I just needed someone to back em up to make sure........