One limper, TT on the button with 18BBs...

[45suited]

How many of you like pushing this with TT from the button after one limper when I have almost 18BB? I really like doing this alot because:

1) I'd have to risk 1/4 of my stack to make a normal raise
2) I really don't want to see a flop
3) I get called SO OFTEN by small PPs or one overcard
because it looks like such a steal

Is this standard for most of you guys? Maybe you won't get paid off at the higher levels, but then again, maybe you will because it looks so suspicious. I really don't see any line better than pushing here, does anybody else?

Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 4: marzz222 ( $1490 )
Seat 9: maddawg1018 ( $1480 )
Seat 10: asidz ( $880 )
Seat 6: HERO ( $880 )
Seat 8: vman4051964 ( $773 )
Seat 3: garudamojo ( $902 )
Seat 7: PharmD07 ( $1595 )

Trny:14300646 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Tc Ts ]
maddawg1018 folds.
asidz folds.
garudamojo calls [50].
marzz222 folds.
HERO is all-In [880]

[RaiNz]

[ QUOTE ]
3) I get called SO OFTEN by small PPs or one overcard because it looks like such a steal


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good thing. You are atleast a 2:1 favorite vs the 1 overcard, and 4:1 vs the dominated underpair. Pushing with this many BB is really bad. The only hands that call you are going to be the ones that beat you with the exception of maybe AK. That means when you get called you are either severely dominated, or slightly better than a coinflip.

[Maulik]

Too much risk for very little reward of t125 chips. Just limp and bet most flops. You're also misunderstanding how deep 18bb is considering the new lvl 75/150. You've got 10 extra hands to find a good spot.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

3) I get called SO OFTEN by small PPs or one overcard
because it looks like such a steal

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think so? How often does K9 call you here? Or A9? A9 is the only 1 overcard hand that might call you on a regular basis. On the other hand small pairs do call you here but not as frequently as you might think (I'm certainly folding 77 here, so really you're looking to see 88 or 99).

On the other hand, I really don't see why you don't want to see a flop here. Most of the time 1 over flops and usually your opponent doesn't have it unless they have an ace. TT is a good hand, extract value from it; YOU ARE IN POSITION. Unless you are confident you will get outplayed postflop, just make a standard raise.

[RaiNz]

[ QUOTE ]
Too much risk for very little reward of t125 chips. Just limp and bet most flops. You're also misunderstanding how deep 18bb is considering the new lvl 75/150. You've got 10 extra hands to find a good spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you suggest we limp instead of making a standard raise here?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got 10 extra hands to find a good spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT on the button *is* a good spot.

[bmxreed36]

I sometimes limp but also sometimes in similar situations, I may make a smallish raise to say 150 just to be able to hopefully go heads-up with the initial limper. You will have position after the flop after showing strength pre-flop which makes it easier to play and it still isn't too much to lose if you have to dump it on the flop.

[Paradigm]

i make a standard pre-flop raise to 150. there's no need to risk so many chips at this instance, considering we can't be sure that the limper will call with a lower PP. further, do not discredit the fact that you have position on this hand and you can dump quickly if the board slaps you in the face.

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
further, do not discredit the fact that you have position on this hand and you can dump quickly if the board slaps you in the face.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can bet TT, even if the flop slaps us.

[tigerite]

I think you don't understand, the point is he'll be acting last on the flop, so if it comes KQ5 or something then he can tell from the actions of the other players who called as to what he should do next. This is why the button is such a strong preflop position to be in.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
3) I get called SO OFTEN by small PPs or one overcard because it looks like such a steal

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good thing. You are atleast a 2:1 favorite vs the 1 overcard, and 4:1 vs the dominated underpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's great thing. That's the whole point of pushing here.

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing with this many BB is really bad. The only hands that call you are going to be the ones that beat you with the exception of maybe AK. That means when you get called you are either severely dominated, or slightly better than a coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wrong for the 22s and below. You will be called by one overcard hands and lower PPs here so often it's unbelievable. And as far as overpairs, if someone has JJ+, I'm either losing my whole stack or getting severely crippled with TT here anyway.

The whole point of my post was this: At the lower levels, rather than trying FPS plays (which in rare cases do have merit) such as the PVS, it is better to make a play like this, which I consider a "Fake PVS"... It looks so much like a steal, and at the lower levels the guys with A4s or 55 who don't understand the gap concept or are just plain curious, cannot help but force themselves to call you.

Again, my stack size is such that if I happen to run into JJ+, I'm pretty screwed no matter how I play it.

Playing TT this way in this situation (where a normal 3BB + 1 limper raise is ~25% of my stack) is incredibly +EV. Give it a shot at the 22s and below and you'll be amazed how often you double up.

I would say that I get called here 70% of the time, and of those times, the vast majority of the time, my hand is way ahead pre-flop.

Think about it: the common reasoning (correctly) says not to try stuff like the PVS very often at the lower levels because the fish ARE MORE LIKELY TO CALL YOU. That's what makes this play so great.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that I get called here 70% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

no way.


how big a stack would you need before you didn't push?

[schwza]

i like a raise to 175. there's some chance you're winning the pot now. and if you don't, you're probably playing heads up in position with a better hand.

[GtrHtr]

I'd limp this hand. I think the most I'd raise this hand based on reads is 3xBB.

[ QUOTE ]
2) I really don't want to see a flop


[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Limp and hope for a board with a T and an A. Money. If you miss the flop, easy fold after limping.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
how big a stack would you need before you didn't push?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm right around the edge in the hand that I posted. I think that people aren't really thinking the hand through.

Yes, I would have position after the flop. But the normal raise of 200 takes me down to 685. There's lots of flops that I have to play very carefully. Even if I push and everyone folds, I've added t125 to my stack (+14%).

But consider the hand in question. I got called by a better hand than I usually do, 88. The flop came with two broadways. Am I doubling up after a normal raise and that flop? Probably not. I might even get bluffed off the best hand. Put yourself in the villain's position when I push pre-flop. This hand was not a great example because he had a real hand.

But so often, guys at the 11s and 22s want to make great reads or they're just curious. I seriously get called by 44, Ace-rag, suited aces all the time here. And again, the argument that I might run into an overpair is just silly - I'm screwed any way that I play this hand if that's the case.

I'm really surprised that nobody has said that they like this. How can people love the PVS and not love a value push that appears to be a PVS? Guys WILL call so often here with hands that you dominate that it is unbelievable.

I should also add that the argument that "AK might call me" is one that I also don't get. I'll take TT vs AK any day of the week, especially in this spot of the game where I need to start accumulating chips.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd limp this hand. I think the most I'd raise this hand based on reads is 3xBB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limp??? I've got 885 pre-flop. There's 125 out there already. I've got what is almost assuredly the best hand, why would I limp and play for set value against 2 or 3 opponents.

I keep forgetting that there are so many people on this forum that think that JJ is a marginal hand. I can only imagine how weak TT is viewed.

I'm making this play because:

1) The 125 out there is significant to my stack and

2) I've got a very strong hand that is still likely to be
called by the idiots at the 11s and 22s if I push,
particularly because my push looks like a PVS

[45suited]

That's fine if nobody likes this, I'm just saying for any player struggling at this level, make value plays like this, not FPS plays with weak hands.

The fish will call more often than you think. And it's never a bad thing to have all your money in with the best hand pre-flop. Trust me on this one...

[vinyard]

Interesting when I see this play at the 800 chip games I think that its somebody with 55-TT, possibly JJ who doesn't want to see a flop. I had chalked it up to small sample size that my TT and even 99 are way ahead as often as they are when I call the all-in.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting when I see this play at the 800 chip games I think that its somebody with 55-TT, possibly JJ who doesn't want to see a flop. I had chalked it up to small sample size that my TT and even 99 are way ahead as often as they are when I call the all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong, Vinyard, I'm not doing it with 55. I can play post-flop, at least better than the typical fish at the lower levels. But when you do it with TT, you will get called by the guy with 55 who is likely folding on alot of flops. It's really a great spot, IMO.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd limp this hand. I think the most I'd raise this hand based on reads is 3xBB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limp??? I've got 885 pre-flop. There's 125 out there already. I've got what is almost assuredly the best hand, why would I limp and play for set value against 2 or 3 opponents.

I keep forgetting that there are so many people on this forum that think that JJ is a marginal hand. I can only imagine how weak TT is viewed.

I'm making this play because:

1) The 125 out there is significant to my stack and

2) I've got a very strong hand that is still likely to be
called by the idiots at the 11s and 22s if I push,
particularly because my push looks like a PVS

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, TT is a "marginal hand"

vs 66+, AJo+ it (TT) is 53% favorite (JJ is 58% FWIW). If you're called you are a coin flip at best w/ TT.

Regarding the donks at the 11s and 22s - sure.

How is 125 chips significant to you at this level?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

The fish will call more often than you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really isn't true on Stars or PokerRoom. But I could see it being true on Party...

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, TT is a "marginal hand"

vs 66+, AJo+ it (TT) is 53% favorite (JJ is 58% FWIW). If you're called you are a coin flip at best w/ TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT is marginal against one limper and the blinds? I think you're really undervaluing the strength of TT here.

Moreover, the scenarios regarding TT vs overpairs is almost irrelevant, since I'm either going broke or getting crippled in the unlikely event that one of my 3 opponents has an overpair anyway.

Oftentimes, the guy that open limped with the small PP here (or one of the blinds) will smell the weakness of my "obvious" bluff here and call my push. Or the limper will get married to his suited ace and call.

Admit it, if you (or anyone, I'm not insulting you by saying this) was sitting there with 66 or 77, you'd be thinking that you had the best hand and I was just stealing. You'd probably have the restraint to lay it down, but alot of players won't, especially at the lower levels.

And the 125 chips do have some value by the way. If I didn't think that there was a good chance of being called (and this is read dependent of course based upon the looseness of my opponents thus far) I probably wouldn't push. But still, pushing would not be terrible.

Look at it this way: I don't understand why the continuation bet on a whiffed AK flop is so popular (when you may well no longer have the best hand), but you'd be afraid of pushing TT pre-flop 4 handed because you're afraid that you might not have the best hand. That's the least of my worries - the only thing I'm worried about is not getting called. And if I don't, well, I added 14% to my stack.

[GtrHtr]

I understand your point. I just think we disagree about the risk vs reward value of this play.

GTR

[RaiNz]

I should also add that the argument that "AK might call me" is one that I also don't get. I'll take TT vs AK any day of the week, especially in this spot of the game where I need to start accumulating chips.

You don't get it because you probably failed to read the last line. I said if called you were probably dominated by a higher PP, or slightly better than a coinflip. Ofcourse we should not be afraid of AK here. Of the hands that call you AK is the only one that you are ahead of.

Sure a complete donk might call you with whatever weak hand because it's his favorite hand. It is hard to believe that you get called 70% of the time.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure a complete donk might call you with whatever weak hand because it's his favorite hand. It is hard to believe that you get called 70% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, after thinking about it some more, 70% was definitely a bit high... it's probably closer to 50%. Still a good play though IMO, especially against loose opponents.

And I think that you're still missing the point that there is no reason to fear a higher PP, since with my stack, I'm either going broke or getting severely crippled against a higher PP here even if I make a standard 3xBB + l limper raise for 1/4 of my stack pre-flop.

Pushing pre-flop against loose, bad opponents here (which the 11s and 22s are filled with) entices them to call me with hands that I am either dominating or on the + side of a coinflip pre-flop.

[curtains]

I think moving allin is reasonable. Whether its my preferred play or not is another question, but ok I think raising is better than limping for sure.