plan with crappy top pair

[schwza]

no one disagrees with completing, right? okay, now what? this is a 33, btw.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t810)
MP2 (t465)
MP3 (t630)
CO (t785)
Button (t835)
Hero (t715)
BB (t760)
UTG (t1090)
UTG+1 (t1910)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero??

[Unarmed]

Checks and evaluates the action after him, raising or folding depending on what happens.

[11t]

I dunno, I am used to PokerStars so the deeper stacks allow for much more post flop play in the early levels. Typically due to it being a pretty draw heavy board and still in the early levels, I would most likely bet out 90 (3/4) and see what happens. If I get called I'd bet 1/2-2/3 of the pot against any non=spade/straight card. If I get called again I'd probably check/fold the river against any spade and check/call any non-threatening card and kick myself when he has KJ.

Of course I think with your shorter stacks I really don't know, I think check/calling the flop and leading out on any non-threatening turn might have some merit but that could just be ridiculous.

Fold preflop /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Raiser]

I like checking.

I would CR a button bet. Check/call if BB or CO bets followed by a call. Check/fold any more significant action than that.

[schwza]

i was reluctant to c/r b/c i didn't want to get called and then have to play two more streets with a pretty big pot. my plan was to check/call the flop and then lead out on any non-scary turn and fold to a raise. does anyone else use this line? should i have just folded the flop?

am i done with the hand now?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t810)
MP2 (t465)
MP3 (t630)
CO (t785)
Button (t835)
Hero (t715)
BB (t760)
UTG (t1090)
UTG+1 (t1910)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t120</font>, Button folds, Hero calls t120, BB folds.

Turn: (t360) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t100</font>, hero?

[skierdude1000]

I see everyone saying to check.... why not just bet out here and see what happens? He's got top pair.... mediocre kicker... betting out seems like solid agressive play

[durron597]

This is why I don't like Party Poker. The stacks are not deep enough to figure out where you are and get away from the hand.

I think curtains would say you should check fold here. I'm almost inclined to agree; decide whether you have the best hand when he bets and either c/r push or fold. I don't like check/calling the flop, I'm not sure what it accomplishes /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
c/r push

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh. it's the old "call me if you're ahead and fold if you're behind" play. i think check/call, lead is a viable way to get to SD cheaply.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
ugh. it's the old "call me if you're ahead and fold if you're behind" play. i think check/call, lead is a viable way to get to SD cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cheaply??? You have 565 left on the turn and the pot is 360. What are you suggesting, lead 200 and then check river when he calls? Fold if he pushes getting 3:1?

Check/call flop, lead turn is not cheap.

Edit: I would rather fold the flop then fold to a push on the turn after investing 320 more chips.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
i think check/call, lead is a viable way to get to SD cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, you are probably right, but in the mean time you are spending all of your FE dollars early in the tournament on a hand that doesn't look so good. His t100 bet on the turn is very odd. He bets less on the turn than the flop? I think he definitely wants to be called here. I fold that turn and move on. You still have enough chips to do damage later, but if you check/call your way down you will be in desperation mode at a very early stage in the tourney.

[schwza]

hmm... your right, the stack sizes make that line kinda tough. i'm leaning towards check/folding the flop now.

but then should i even bother completing?

[kgrad5]

i think i would bet about 90 on that flop. you have top pair decent kicker on a relatively harmless looking flop. the BB is the only one who would possibly have a straight draw on that board so the only thing you are worried about is the spade draw. if someone had a bigger J like AJ or KJ they would most likely have raised pf given it was folded aroudn to the CO, if you bet 90 here you will either take the pot down or make someone with a flush draw make a bad call since you are only giving 190-90 odds here and if someone comes over the top of you big you can lay down and still have lots of chips to play with

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
hmm... your right, the stack sizes make that line kinda tough. i'm leaning towards check/folding the flop now.

[/ QUOTE ]

For Broadway Payoff Factor (tm). C/r allin on a KTx board or something. For 15 chips I call lots of hands.

Honestly, you have no reason to believe you don't have the best hand unless you are against a set. I think c/r the flop is best, get the chips in while you have the best hand and win a pot most of the time that increases your stack 20%.

[Raiser]

If he calls the flop CR, how do you proceed?

I agree that a CR is a good plan on the flop, but I always feel so uncomfortable when my CR is called.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
If he calls the flop CR, how do you proceed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I pray that I either have the best hand or suck out as I watch his cards turn over and see the turn and river dealt?

[Unarmed]

I fold the flop.
There's no reason CO doesn't have KJ/AJ/Ax spades, all of which he's not letting go of when you raise. Just calling is horrid because your reverse implied odds are brutal.
So fold.

[Raiser]

lol, I'm retarded. Of course a CR here would be all in. Sorry for my donk-i-tude.

Carry on.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I pray that I either have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

is there any chance that's going to happen? i think he folds or i have 3 outs. maybe he calls with J9/JT if he sucks.

actually, i take it back, he may have Axs, in which case i'd be very marginally happy i didn't just check/fold.

[durron597]

I really think he folds most of the time. I think AJ would raise preflop. I don't think J6 or J4 stay in the hand preflop. KJ might raise or might call. He could have 99 and is betting with position on the blinds with only 1 over. He might have limped with what is now the nut flush draw, but that would be an open limp here.

I really think pushing will win you the pot more than 3/4 of the time.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I really think he folds most of the time. I think AJ would raise preflop. I don't think J6 or J4 stay in the hand preflop. KJ might raise or might call. He could have 99 and is betting with position on the blinds with only 1 over. He might have limped with what is now the nut flush draw, but that would be an open limp here.

I really think pushing will win you the pot more than 3/4 of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

so do you c/r a-i with 43 here? then at least you have 5 outs instead of 3 against AJ/KJ.

[adanthar]

I bet the flop and expect to take it down the majority of the time.

Okay, you checked and he bet the pot. Generally, you have him beat here with one exception (KJ). I think I push.

Okay, you just called. The worst card in the deck came by but it's clear he also hates it. Either his Axs just paired, he has exactly KJ or you have him beat. I think the play is to checkraise or possibly call him down depending on your read. Note, however, that when you CR and he calls with Ax, you do feel really stupid.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop and expect to take it down the majority of the time.

Okay, you checked and he bet the pot. Generally, you have him beat here with one exception (KJ). I think I push.

Okay, you just called. The worst card in the deck came by but it's clear he also hates it. Either his Axs just paired, he has exactly KJ or you have him beat. I think the play is to checkraise or possibly call him down depending on your read. Note, however, that when you CR and he calls with Ax, you do feel really stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, same question: do you think you're getting called by hands that QJ is ahead of, or do you also c/r with 34? cause i think that if the answer to both is no, then c/r'ing here doesn't make sense.

[adanthar]

I think I get called by Axs a lot and basically any jack pretty much always (keep in mind that if someone is dumb enough to limp J3s they aren't folding top pair.)

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, you checked and he bet the pot. Generally, you have him beat here with one exception (KJ). I think I push.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sets also have you beaten, but I would be surprised if a set would bet the full pot.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I get called by Axs a lot and basically any jack pretty much always (keep in mind that if someone is dumb enough to limp J3s they aren't folding top pair.)

[/ QUOTE ]

You might get a call from a frisky TT also.