AK flop play

[11t]

Does anybody slowdown after the check-raise?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1810)
Button (t1490)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1440)
Hero (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1280)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls t70, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t180) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t240</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1420</font>

[wiggs73]

with the t1500 starting stacks, you can actually do something besides push or fold. I know playing actual poker is a dreaded thought on this forum, but I'd call and see how the hand develops on later streets. You do have way too good of a hand to fold though.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
with the t1500 starting stacks, you can actually do something besides push or fold. I know playing actual poker is a dreaded thought on this forum, but I'd call and see how the hand develops on later streets. You do have way too good of a hand to fold though.

[/ QUOTE ]

the thing is, i think betting out and calling a checkraise screams "i have a draw." which makes it less likely for you to get paid off if you do hit it.

I think you are at worst a 50/50 shot here (I don't think I buy him checkraising here with a set), and with your FE, I think it's worth a push. I like this line.

[adanthar]

Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're one of the posters on here whose advice I greatly respect. But I'm not so sure I agree with you on this one.

First off, let's assume that hero is up against a set or a straight. He needs to hit the flush to win, and let's go ahead and assume that he needs to hit it on the turn since he will likely be driven out by a huge bet from villain if a non-flush card hits. And just for the sake of argument, let's say villain won't give him any more action if a flush card hits, so there are no implied odds. Hero does have the pot odds to just call (getting 4.5:1 on a 4:1 shot). If villain has an overpair or is bluffing, then we can count the Ace and King as outs too so his odds become even better. And if you factor in implied odds plus the chance that he won't face too large of a bet to stay around on the turn if he misses, the numbers become even better. Clearly, calling is +EV. I don't know if it is as +EV as raising, but I do think calling is a viable option here. Whether it is the prefered option is a matter of opinion I guess, but I don't think that it sucks.

[Meatmaw]

I've been reading a recent thread regarding playing AK cheaply PF in the early levels, and I tried this to some extent last night at the Party $55s and it felt terrible. What do people think of this? I believe the thinking was that:

a) you don't want to commit a lot of chips with AK in early levels and go up against a PP.
b) you'll be transmitting your hand with the raise and get no action when an A/K hits on the flop after your raise.

My problem with this is:
a) It seems quite common (at least more than I expected) for the people who actually push all in after a raise/reraise during early levels to be the fish bluffing with JT or AJ.
b) People don't seem to play that aggressively anyway when an A/K flops once you call/raise them.

Any other points or thoughts on this? I was typically in the habit of, when considering an all-in, going strongly by the pot odds, but the 'limp in' and passive approach has some sense and has thrown me for a loop.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can get into this line too. I considered in my first post in this thread recommending a raise to something like 7-800, but decided against it because I thought, ultimately, it was pointless -- I guess I'm not sure that we have more fold equity on the turn with a smaller bet than on the flop with the overbet.

But it's close. I think in order of preference, I like pushing, then raising, then calling, and folding really isn't an option here.

[sng-sam]

I have villan on an over pair 99 10 10 or JJ that means I have a monster draw but a draw nonetheless. I think that I call here (read:weak/tight) and save chips . I play at both stars and party and I can tell you that although 1500 is lot you lose fold equity faster when you take a hit becuase everyone thinks they have so many chips to spare.

SAM

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.

[/ QUOTE ]

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, let's assume that hero is up against a set or a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play on PS much, but at Party, this is very, very unlikely to be a set. If he has a straight, good for him. You've got between 4-5 clean overcard outs on average.

[ QUOTE ]
If villain has an overpair or is bluffing, then we can count the Ace and King as outs too so his odds become even better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes we can, which is why it's going to suck a lot when you get pushed off this hand roughly 2/3 of the time (oh, you're also not getting paid when an ace or king turns and 99 shuts down, so 4-5 of these outs aren't worth very much.)

[ QUOTE ]
And if you factor in implied odds plus the chance that he won't face too large of a bet to stay around on the turn if he misses, the numbers become even better. Clearly, calling is +EV. I don't know if it is as +EV as raising, but I do think calling is a viable option here. Whether it is the prefered option is a matter of opinion I guess, but I don't think that it sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing preflop is +EV, too, but it still sucks.

Don't get me wrong, BTW, I understand what you're talking about and partially agree, but his range doesn't support calling at all. Actually, I may very well be wrong because I don't play on PS and if this is a set obviously calling is better. At Party, it's by and large not.

[rydazzle]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, let's assume that hero is up against a set or a straight

[/ QUOTE ]

58 calls a raise in SB?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First off, let's assume that hero is up against a set or a straight

[/ QUOTE ]

58 calls a raise in SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

... and i see you completely missed the point.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it so wrong to just cut your losses and fold if he is facing a big turn bet? I push here a lot, but I'll call sometimes as well if I think they may give me a cheap turn and will call with crappy overpairs when i push.

[rydazzle]

His point is pretty clear.

I give about 0% prob to a straight in my outs calculation though, thats my point. If you mention a possible hand you should assign weight to it, in this case it will lower the chance that A/K are outs.

[rydazzle]

I dont like the push. As wiggs73 laid out, you've got the odds you need to call, w/o implieds, and no cheap turn needed. Its early enough that a call doesnt cripple your stack if u miss.

[11t]

Am I the only person that thinks his most obvious hands are JJ and TT and he was min-raising me to see where I was at in the hand?

Villain folded but I never felt he had a straight.

[rydazzle]

Interesting. So many posts are losing stories that I insta-assume the worst...to answer your question (though it may not be the 'right' play) I slow down and call...

[curtains]

I check behind on the flop. I like this play a lot when you flop the nut flush draw, even headsup as the preflop raiser.

Basically avoids all the difficult decisions you are faced with when you are checkraised. There is nothing worse here than getting check raised off the nut flush draw, and if you decide to call anyway, okay it's not the end of the world to get allin on the flop, but if your opponent has a great hand worth putting all his chips in, it'd be nice to see a free turn as you might win all his chips anyway.

Also the pot is small enough where it's not very important for you to win it right away.

When I play this is a pretty standard check behind in this situation. This isn't to say I do it 100% of the time, but it's definitely the default play. Just think about how much easier the hand is to play...

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
His point is pretty clear.

I give about 0% prob to a straight in my outs calculation though, thats my point. If you mention a possible hand you should assign weight to it, in this case it will lower the chance that A/K are outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

His point it just that in the worst case scenerio, you have the odds to call. He's not in anyway implying that the guy is actually holding a set or straight.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Calling sucks. You're gonna face a big bet on the turn and miss over 2 out of 3 of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're getting better than 4.5:1 with deep stacks. Not hitting 70% of the time doesn't seem so bad to me.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I'd make it 700 and push any turn. I think you have (slightly) more FE that way than with an outright push.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just seems stupid aggressive. You're willing to lose your 75BB stack on a bluff push on a missed turn rather than call and see if a good card hits? Am I really missing this much about sng strategy?

[kasey2004]

[ QUOTE ]
I check behind on the flop. I like this play a lot when you flop the nut flush draw, even headsup as the preflop raiser.


[/ QUOTE ]

U check the nut flush draw with 2 overs heads up here ? I dont think I have ever even thought of doing that in a situation like this.

I dont mind the push here.

/images/graemlins/spade.gif Kasey /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[mlagoo]

i like this line. i've do it every now and again, but typically out of position -- maybe in MP with one left to act behind. i don't think i've done it last to act, but this is definitely good reasoning for it.

with any luck, your heart falls and he bets out on the turn.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I check behind on the flop. I like this play a lot when you flop the nut flush draw, even headsup as the preflop raiser.


[/ QUOTE ]

I feel that my hand loses a lot of value when I see my free card here. If it's a heart, then an overpair has to worry whether I checked behind with a flush draw. If it's an ace or a king, then the guy with 1 pair figures he's almost certainly beat.

There is no card that I want to see that doesn't scare my opponent. Thus I like to bet the flop. Thoughts?

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person that thinks his most obvious hands are JJ and TT and he was min-raising me to see where I was at in the hand?

Villain folded but I never felt he had a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you are't the only one who thought this. In fact, I didn't say it, but I felt that this was a strong possibility as well because I quite simply didn't think a set, a straight, or overcards would have played the hand this way. In the example I layed out earlier, I was setting up the worst possible case scenario just to illustrate that with everything working against you, calling is still +EV. Since it is likely that everything won't work against you, calling is likely to be more +EV than in my example.

To Adanthar, fwiw, I think that pushing the flop is ok too, I just wouldn't do it. At party I would because you have less chips to take cards off, but with the larger stacks at stars, I think calling becomes a more reasonable option. I feel like it gives you a good chance to gain more chips while minimizing your losses should your hand not hit on the turn or river. At party (which is where I play btw), I'd likely be pushing this in a heartbeat because you have to gain chips quicker. But blinds are so small in the example, that I think you can easily let it go and be in good shape if nothing materializes. This is just a difference in style though and I don't think a call or a push would be bad by any stretch.

[11t]

Also I throw out a continuation bet here almost 80% of the time regardless of the flop. I figured that checking behind would look suspicious, however I doubt anybody would have noticed.

[tangfoot]

[ QUOTE ]
I check behind on the flop. I like this play a lot when you flop the nut flush draw, even headsup as the preflop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cloutier advocates this play.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check behind on the flop. I like this play a lot when you flop the nut flush draw, even headsup as the preflop raiser.


[/ QUOTE ]

I feel that my hand loses a lot of value when I see my free card here. If it's a heart, then an overpair has to worry whether I checked behind with a flush draw. If it's an ace or a king, then the guy with 1 pair figures he's almost certainly beat.

There is no card that I want to see that doesn't scare my opponent. Thus I like to bet the flop. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]


Your hand doesn't have as much value as you think, especially if all the money goes in on the flop. Getting a lot of money in on the flop is a bad scenario for this hand, despite the fact that you have the nut flush draw and two overcards and "might" be a small favorite.

I mean I just don't understand. You are worried that an overpair will be scared that a flush draw just hit? Are you really that desperate to get all your money in on the flop against an overpair? You shouldn't be. If your opponent has one pair, same story. Why in the world are you so excited to get all 1500 chips in as a small favorite? If your opponent has 88, you only win 52% of the time. Also you are an underdog to hands like Ac 7c.

How come everyone likes to avoid coinflips and now suddenly you are just dying to get your opponent to play with you on the flop. If they put a lot of money in there is very little chance you are much more than a coinflip.

In my opinion you are drastically overrating the strength of your hand here. I'm HAPPY if by checking I scare my opponent off whatever hand they had or I get a free card that maybe allows me to win a small pot instead of getting allin as a coinflip for a big one. Also note that by checking I am allowing myself to win a huge pot if my opponent happened to have a big hand on the flop, yet I can't lose one. So many reasons why I like to check here...

Also if a blank falls, Im much happier bluffing on the turn than the flop, as your hand has lost some of it's value (although generally I'd check behind the turn too).

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand doesn't have as much value as you think, especially if all the money goes in on the flop. Getting a lot of money in on the flop is a bad scenario for this hand, despite the fact that you have the nut flush draw and two overcards and "might" be a small favorite.

I mean I just don't understand. You are worried that an overpair will be scared that a flush draw just hit? Are you really that desperate to get all your money in on the flop against an overpair? You shouldn't be. If your opponent has one pair, same story. Why in the world are you so excited to get all 1500 chips in as a small favorite? If your opponent has 88, you only win 52% of the time. Also you are an underdog to hands like Ac 7c.

How come everyone likes to avoid coinflips and now suddenly you are just dying to get your opponent to play with you on the flop. If they put a lot of money in there is very little chance you are much more than a coinflip.

In my opinion you are drastically overrating the strength of your hand here. I'm HAPPY if by checking I scare my opponent off whatever hand they had or I get a free card that maybe allows me to win a small pot instead of getting allin as a coinflip for a big one. Also note that by checking I am allowing myself to win a huge pot if my opponent happened to have a big hand on the flop, yet I can't lose one. So many reasons why I like to check here...

Also if a blank falls, Im much happier bluffing on the turn than the flop, as your hand has lost some of it's value (although generally I'd check behind the turn too)

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant post. I'd pay to belong to this forum for stuff like this. I couldn't agree more, although I wouldn't have been able to explain it anywhere near like that.

(I'm not a big fan of the continuation bet with AK in general, so this post really makes sense to me.)

[curtains]

Thanks happy you liked it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It all stems from an idea called "Don't bet yourself off the nut flush draw" (applies when the stacks aren't shallow)

Of course there are exceptions, and this is a special one since you probably can give action if you get some on the flop, but it's a good rule of thumb.

Limit players are used to betting the flop after 3 opponents check when they have the nut flush draw. However in No Limit it's often a key strategic mistake.

Anyway the idea doesn't apply specifically to this situation, but enough so that I favor checking behind.


"btw the idea could also be demonstrated by "Dont turn your hand into 72o" a concept Sklansky talks about in some of his books."

For instance if you are on the button and have A7h against 2 callers with deep stacks. The flop comes like J54 with 2 hearts and they check to you, if you now bet and someone makes a huge pot committing raise, you might have to throw away your hand, and you have thus turned a hand with huge future value into 72o."

[durron597]

I'm not looking to call allin here with my overcards and flush draw, I'm looking to bet right here and win the pot, and if I do get called I'm still likely the favorite. If the pot is small enough where a push doesn't make sense, so I bet less and they call then they will likely check to me on the turn and I can see the river for free. However if I check behind they will bet the turn which is basically the same amount of chips except I lose the fold equity from not betting the flop.

The real problem is that if I check behind and miss and they bet the pot, now I don't have odds to see the river because I won't get paid off if I hit, and my A high might actually be good and if it isn't I am no closer to knowing if my outs are clean.

If I bet the flop, it's not actually a bluff - I am value betting what will more often than not be the best hand by the river. If the turn and river are blanks, I am giving my opponent a chance to fold his 1 pair hand gaining me a small pot instead of giving him the small pot.

[The Venetian]

I think the key here is how often you can get the opponent to lay down a hand that is better at the moment, like 88-JJ. You're coinflipping if he calls, but if he folds often enough, this becomes a solidly +EV play, if a bit high on the variance side.

My standard play on the flop with the nut flush draw and two overcards has been to try and get all my chips in the pot with some folding equity. Whether that means bet-raise-reraise or check-raise. I want him to have to call a lot of chips to (hopefully) coinflip with me. I'm willing to listen, though, to alternatives...it just seems to work well.

Without the overcards/nut draw, like you, I'll check behind to get at least one free card.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
My standard play on the flop with the nut flush draw and two overcards has been to try and get all my chips in the pot with some folding equity. Whether that means bet-raise-reraise or check-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

If it goes bet-raise-reraise, you're not flipping coins anymore.

[adanthar]

Here is the opposing view as to checking behind on the flop:

There is very little question that against multiple tricky opponents, or sometimes even one tricky opponent, checking behind on a J54 flop with an A7 draw is the right play. However, this is not a similar situation.

First and foremost, you are heads up on an all low board. There are times you should check behind here, but not against most players and not with almost anything you've raised PF. Most of the time when you do, you are either setting yourself up to get pushed off the pot on the turn, or, equally likely, giving your opponent up to 6 outs you don't want him to have *and* giving him cause to suspect 22 is good. With deep stacks, it is very often the proper play here to call a hand like 22 PF and fold it on any non-2 flop, including this one, but once you check the flop all bets are off.

Second, the most powerful way you have to get the guy off this flop is not to check the flop, raise the turn (especially if he hits something he likes.) It's to bet/3 bet a raise now; there are only a few hands most people will do that with, and if your opponent is any good at all 88 will go out the window either now or on the turn. I said 'slightly more FE' in my original post because almost nobody at Party is any good, but hey, you're on Stars now so it varies.

Third, six of your outs (if you have all 15) will not result in you getting paid now; if you check behind and an ace hits the hand is over. If you bet, get called, a high card hits the turn and you check through, you are usually winning a nice pot on the river (ie, your implied odds on your flop bet are usually something like 2:1-3:1 even if you know you are getting called; they are higher if a heart hits). If you check through here, nobody that can't beat TPTK will pay you off on any following street you hit. As a corollary, if your opponent has a set or A7 and an ace hits the turn, you are calling him down on two streets and he is the one who controlls how many chips go in.

Fourth, for Shania's sake, if I check behind this hand I am sometimes checking behind AA, too, and I won't be doing that any time soon (too many cards that kill my action).

Finally, free turn cards &gt; free flop cards.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

For instance if you are on the button and have A7h against 2 callers with deep stacks. The flop comes like J54 with 2 hearts and they check to you, if you now bet and someone makes a huge pot committing raise, you might have to throw away your hand, and you have thus turned a hand with huge future value into 72o."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally different, because you are willing to get all your chips in with the two overs and the flush draw since you are almost certainly the favorite. In your example the situation is not nearly as good.

The problem is that if you hit your hand you are not likely to get bets on future streets, so you are happy to get the money in now. Also if you bet and the third heart does hit you got a bet in on the flop that you might not have been able to get on the turn.

[curtains]

btw just so everyone knows I don't think betting is terrible or anything, it's just not my style here against a random opponent.

Also it's the much lower variance play, and since I do have a pretty nice edge on the bubble I'd rather choose the play that doesn't give me a larger chance of investing a ton of chips early on with just the nut flush draw.

Checking definitely has it's strategical advantages, and no matter what I will be left with a healthy stack after the hand and possibly a huge stack. Also

Note also that this is a flop that I generally check behind even if I just have AKo (Referring to $215 games and up, as in lower limits I found it was profitable to just bet blindly every time).

Against familiar opponents I will check sometimes with AA-QQ although its rare (Long story but depends on the suits), I can only remember doing it once in the recent past and it's not the optimal play, it's simply to mask your hand for the future, something which is almost always unneccessary on PartyPoker.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

For instance if you are on the button and have A7h against 2 callers with deep stacks. The flop comes like J54 with 2 hearts and they check to you, if you now bet and someone makes a huge pot committing raise, you might have to throw away your hand, and you have thus turned a hand with huge future value into 72o."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally different, because you are willing to get all your chips in with the two overs and the flush draw since you are almost certainly the favorite. In your example the situation is not nearly as good.

The problem is that if you hit your hand you are not likely to get bets on future streets, so you are happy to get the money in now. Also if you bet and the third heart does hit you got a bet in on the flop that you might not have been able to get on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

durron, again you are not almost certainly the favorite. At most you are going to be 52%, but you could easily be the underdog. Also you are playing stupid idiots on the internet. If they flopped a set you will get all of their money if a heart comes. They don't have nearly as much fear as you give them credit for. They aren't going to simply fold their 88 or 55 because a 3rd heart comes on the turn.

[The Venetian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My standard play on the flop with the nut flush draw and two overcards has been to try and get all my chips in the pot with some folding equity. Whether that means bet-raise-reraise or check-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

If it goes bet-raise-reraise, you're not flipping coins anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

For this situation, sure. I was speaking generally. Bet-raise-reraise wouldn't have a lot of fold equity, if any, in most Party SNG's...I understand this.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the opposing view as to checking behind on the flop:

There is very little question that against multiple tricky opponents, or sometimes even one tricky opponent, checking behind on a J54 flop with an A7 draw is the right play. However, this is not a similar situation.

First and foremost, you are heads up on an all low board. There are times you should check behind here, but not against most players and not with almost anything you've raised PF. Most of the time when you do, you are either setting yourself up to get pushed off the pot on the turn, or, equally likely, giving your opponent up to 6 outs you don't want him to have *and* giving him cause to suspect 22 is good. With deep stacks, it is very often the proper play here to call a hand like 22 PF and fold it on any non-2 flop, including this one, but once you check the flop all bets are off.

Second, the most powerful way you have to get the guy off this flop is not to check the flop, raise the turn (especially if he hits something he likes.) It's to bet/3 bet a raise now; there are only a few hands most people will do that with, and if your opponent is any good at all 88 will go out the window either now or on the turn. I said 'slightly more FE' in my original post because almost nobody at Party is any good, but hey, you're on Stars now so it varies.

Third, six of your outs (if you have all 15) will not result in you getting paid now; if you check behind and an ace hits the hand is over. If you bet, get called, a high card hits the turn and you check through, you are usually winning a nice pot on the river (ie, your implied odds on your flop bet are usually something like 2:1-3:1 even if you know you are getting called; they are higher if a heart hits). If you check through here, nobody that can't beat TPTK will pay you off on any following street you hit. As a corollary, if your opponent has a set or A7 and an ace hits the turn, you are calling him down on two streets and he is the one who controlls how many chips go in.

Fourth, for Shania's sake, if I check behind this hand I am sometimes checking behind AA, too, and I won't be doing that any time soon (too many cards that kill my action).

Finally, free turn cards &gt; free flop cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay first of all our opponent isn't good here. I'm pretty sure this is a relatively low buyin sit and go on Pokerstars. If I bet the flop, get check raised, I expect to be called when I move allin. In a higher buyin with more sophiticated opponents, it's much more likely they will checkraise this flop with random garbage, as it's not a great raisers flop.

btw if our opponent has a set, all our chips are getting in on the flop as a signifigant underdog, so I don't see why you seem to phrase it as though it would be bad to check against a set because suddenly they have control of the pot on the turn.

btw I just can't see how you can reguarly play sit and gos online and honestly believe that NO ONE will pay you off if an ace/king comes unless they can beat your hand. Are we playing the same games as each other? I'd regularly get paid off by worse hands even at the $215s. It's not like it happens all the time, but to say no one will pay you off is a gross overstatement.

Your opponents play terribly for a large part because they call with hands that are obviously beaten. I mean I'm not expecting huge action if an ace comes on the turn, but I sure wouldnt be shocked to get action from 87 or 99.

[adanthar]

For the record, the higher you go and the less people you play, the more important it is to not just automatically check or bet (which is why it's weird to me that somebody like ZJ can 12 table 200's on one monitor and get 10%. gotta learn that. Anyway...)

A lot here depends on what you put the other guy on. Against a TAG who will never bluff call Q9o PF and CR any flop, betting out blindly may not be profitable because he won't fold enough. Against Gigabet, it may be profitable anyway because he's probably checkraising this with anything and I'm ahead of his range so I can occasionally play AK like aces. Against 94.3% of Party opponents plus or minus the other however many, your thinking should go 'hey, he's a donk, I'll bet'.

215's may be different, I'll find out in a couple of months.

[curtains]

btw you can play like an automatic robot at the $215s and win fairly easily. Its of almost no importance to vary your game even at that level if you are playing well.

Also against a very tough opponent I would probably bet the flop and plan to get all the money in if checkraised. However this isn't the case in this example.

Also I beleive ZJ has 2 monitors, not 1.

[adanthar]

If he has a set he is usually not checkraising this flop, he's just calling. When an ace hits the turn, I check by default with almost anything I have. Now he's either paying me off or I'm paying him off, but the pot is much smaller either way and I get the most out of 99.

109's these days have 2-3 other 2+2'ers per table on average and the other donkeys are not really the type that are gonna call 3 big bets on a 7xxAx board with 87. The 215's might be different, I know there's more big bluffs going on.

[curtains]

There are no big bluffs, everyone is just terrible at poker. People do the most absurd things at the $215s and trust me the level of play at the 109s isnt higher.

Also to assume your opponent is a good player and then to assume they won't check raise with a set on this flop seems like a huge contradiction to me. There is zero chance I'd EVER just check call a set here. I would never expect a set to slowplay here.

It's ridiculous to check call I think, you are getting all the money from an overpair now, but there are tons of cards that can come on the turn to kill your action, depending on your opponents hand.

[adanthar]

Eh, 'good' is kinda a bad word to use. 'Capable of folding' is what I meant, not really the same thing. It doesn't really take a good player to fold 99 when he just got 3 bet by the PFR.

So now that I've said that let me rephrase this to 'most Party donkeys won't CR a set on a 754 board'. They love doing it with 99 and QhTh and K8o, but nobody ever does it with a set. I guess they're scared they'll never get chips out of an AK that improves or something.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
So now that I've said that let me rephrase this to 'most Party donkeys won't CR a set on a 754 board'.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a Party donkey that would do this as my standard play because the other Party donkeys can be counted on to automatically throw a continuation bet out there if I check. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, 'good' is kinda a bad word to use. 'Capable of folding' is what I meant, not really the same thing. It doesn't really take a good player to fold 99 when he just got 3 bet by the PFR.

So now that I've said that let me rephrase this to 'most Party donkeys won't CR a set on a 754 board'. They love doing it with 99 and QhTh and K8o, but nobody ever does it with a set. I guess they're scared they'll never get chips out of an AK that improves or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if they are a donkey I dont think they are folding 99.

[adanthar]

"He bet, then 3 bet my raise, he must have aces"

I don't take this line very often but boy I've heard some awful folds typed into chat (from people who weren't lying) afterwards.

[Bigwig]

In my experience, this mini-raise screams "I have a mid overpair (88-TT) and I'm putting you to my idiot test without committing a lot of chips." I think you get a fold often to shove em in here.

I hate disagreeing with Curtains.

EDIT--BTW, against a LAG player or a big stack who's capable of mild bullying, I check behind on the flop.

[curtains]

How do you know they have 88-TT when they fold to your reraise?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]

How do you know they have 88-TT when they fold to your reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I make observations about hands that I'm not involved in. Holla.

[curtains]

You aren't really disagreeing with me. I don't have a big problem with betting, I just prefer checking in the exact situation that was posted.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How do you know they have 88-TT when they fold to your reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I make observations about hands that I'm not involved in. Holla.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well how do you know what anyone has once they fold?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How do you know they have 88-TT when they fold to your reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I make observations about hands that I'm not involved in. Holla.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well how do you know what anyone has once they fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the player who made the original bet often doesn't fold and the hand ends up at a showdown. That doesn't mean they pushed, of course. They may call and then comes the turn, blar de blar.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How do you know they have 88-TT when they fold to your reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I make observations about hands that I'm not involved in. Holla.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well how do you know what anyone has once they fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the player who made the original bet often doesn't fold and the hand ends up at a showdown. That doesn't mean they pushed, of course. They may call and then comes the turn, blar de blar.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how do you know they would have folded!!

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How do you know they have 88-TT when they fold to your reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I make observations about hands that I'm not involved in. Holla.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well how do you know what anyone has once they fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the player who made the original bet often doesn't fold and the hand ends up at a showdown. That doesn't mean they pushed, of course. They may call and then comes the turn, blar de blar.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how do you know they would have folded!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains, you've played long enough to understand the psychology of the donk. You must get into their donk brain:

"Hmmm. I called with my pair of 9's. But this guy might have a big pair. He raised preflop. And now he's betting! I don't want to lose all my money here to QQ-AA again (as I've done 15 times the past two weeks). Lemme raise a little to see if he has AK or AQ. He'll surely fold, maybe call. Uh-oh, he reraised all-in. He must have a big pair."

Folds.

[11t]

This was exactly my logic, although I do see a lot of validity in checking behind.

I figured him for TT and he did fold.

It takes one to know one, and I definitely know donks.

[curtains]

btw what buyin was this?

[45suited]

I really doubt that he had TT. Must be the worst player ever.

[11t]

PS 27 Turbo

[curtains]

Anyway real quick before I go, I am not saying that betting is bad or wrong or anything, however I would often check. The stronger my opponent is, the more likely I am to simply bet out the flop.

Anyway just wanted to give some reasons for making a play that no one seemed to be considering!