Calling based on username of villain!

[Sabrazack]

The name of the villain had me believe he was a regular at these forums, so i figured he would be pushing any two in this spot not knowing i knew he was pushing any two. So i called. Would you?

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 3: hollabwaha ( $630 )
Seat 8: robcam11 ( $660 )
Seat 7: HERO ( $1880 )
Seat 2: tyterrell ( $4830 )
Trny:13904410 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 2h Kh ]
robcam11 folds.
tyterrell folds.
hollabwaha is all-In [555]
HERO calls [480].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 2d, 7h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qh ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ad ]
hollabwaha shows [ 6s, 2s ] two pairs, sixes and twos.
HERO shows [ 2h, Kh ] a flush, king high.
HERO wins 1260 chips from the main pot with a flush, king high.
hollabwaha finished in fourth place.

[Karak567]

With stronger hands, maybe. But I dunno about K2 (although it was soot3d)

[Sabrazack]

K2 is a favourite over any2 afaik and there was already 225$ in the pot. But as i said, im not making this call without the Uber read i had.

[infinite_loop]

You're getting about 1.7:1, and given your read you probably have the advantage, but not by a lot. If you call and lose you fall to 1220, with still enough chips to get ITM, but you are no longer comfortable now that you are basically even in chips with the aggressive blind thief to your right and the big stack to your left. If you call and win, you jump to 2540, you have knocked out an aggressive player and guaranteed cash with a good shot at first.

I think I would probably call, but I think it's close.

[Karak567]

I know that but you have to factor in the chance that he holds a hand that beats K2 and the chance that he he holds a hand that beats say, KT. He may or may NOT be pushing any 2, lots of percentages to crunch here.

[J Chap]

The only user info I've been using as a read is location: If a person is from any city in Texas, his or her raises mean less to me.

I'm kidding.

Kind of

yeeee-hawww!

[curtains]

This is a clear call regardless of reads. I guess if you read them to be unbeleivably tight you can fold, but okay its really impossible to get such a read with any accuracy. I would never fold here.

[infinite_loop]

sorry, misread the HH... meant you fall to 1250 or jump to 2420... with about 1.6:1

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear call regardless of reads. I guess if you read them to be unbeleivably tight you can fold, but okay its really impossible to get such a read with any accuracy. I would never fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you serious??? the only way i can see that happening is if you can say that he is pushing with any two here, which at the 22s, is quite difficult, regardless of whether or not the villain is a 2+2er.

[pearljam]

I can see never folding this in a 200+15, but what about when playing the 10's-30's against a random opponent?

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear call regardless of reads. I guess if you read them to be unbeleivably tight you can fold, but okay its really impossible to get such a read with any accuracy. I would never fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a mistake in the 33s and below without a read. Many fish do not understand the push with any two concept.

[curtains]

Ok but he has 4x the Bb, you are getting a great price. I think most people will be pushing with hands like J9o, but I could be wrong.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear call regardless of reads. I guess if you read them to be unbeleivably tight you can fold, but okay its really impossible to get such a read with any accuracy. I would never fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a mistake in the 33s and below without a read. Many fish do not understand the push with any two concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP has explained pretty clearly this guy is not a fish.

I would call...1300 chips is plenty to get ITM...you might have to push a little more than usual but no problemo. For all your chips this is a definite fold though.

[curtains]

Nevermind....not so confident about my former stance on this hand...although I think its close.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear call regardless of reads. I guess if you read them to be unbeleivably tight you can fold, but okay its really impossible to get such a read with any accuracy. I would never fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a mistake in the 33s and below without a read. Many fish do not understand the push with any two concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP has explained pretty clearly this guy is not a fish.

I would call...1300 chips is plenty to get ITM...you might have to push a little more than usual but no problemo. For all your chips this is a definite fold though.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only way this call is clearly correct is if you can accurately assess that villain will push any two in this situation. very few players (even 2+2ers) that play at the 22s know to do this.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear call regardless of reads. I guess if you read them to be unbeleivably tight you can fold, but okay its really impossible to get such a read with any accuracy. I would never fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a mistake in the 33s and below without a read. Many fish do not understand the push with any two concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP has explained pretty clearly this guy is not a fish.

I would call...1300 chips is plenty to get ITM...you might have to push a little more than usual but no problemo. For all your chips this is a definite fold though.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only way this call is clearly correct is if you can accurately assess that villain will push any two in this situation. very few players (even 2+2ers) that play at the 22s know to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me rephrase. The OP has made it clear this guy is a 2+2er. 2+2ers know to push any two in this situation. Based on the original question (should I consider this guy 2+2 from his name), a call seems fine here.

[curtains]

btw this is clearly not a PUSH ANY 2 spot from the SB....any 2+2er who would blindly push any 2 here is probably making a grave mistake.

Also after doing some math with eastbays program I've been convinced that this is a fold.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
The OP has made it clear this guy is a 2+2er. 2+2ers know to push any two in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You give 2+2ers too much credit here. This is such an elementary fold, so much so, that I was very surprised to see Curtains say that this was a clear call. I'm glad that he changed his mind.

[curtains]

Also lets go back to the point that pushing any 2 from the SB is ridiculous and for everyone to act like it's the normal way any 2+2er should play is crazy!

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]

Also lets go back to the point that pushing any 2 from the SB is ridiculous and for everyone to act like it's the normal way any 2+2er should play is crazy!

[/ QUOTE ]

Even more of a reason that this is a clear fold.

[curtains]

Yeah I agree that it's a fold now, give me a break, I play a lot of tables when I post sometimes /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But okay its disturbing that about 5 posters acted as though any 2+2er should obviously know to push any 2 from the SB here, whereas in actuality we should be relatively tight I think. I'll check to see how often we should push in a second.

[curtains]

Okay I was wrong again about being v tight. I'm really confused right now....

[curtains]

Okay I need to figure out how to find the optimal play for both sides in this sitaution assuming we are in a vacuum where all players play perfectly. Anyone know how to do it exactly? I'm going to try to figure it out right now....but not sure immediately what to do.

I suspect that from a theoretical viewpoint, K2s is a clear call, but Im not totally sure just yet.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
But okay its disturbing that about 5 posters acted as though any 2+2er should obviously know to push any 2 from the SB here, whereas in actuality we should be relatively tight I think. I'll check to see how often we should push in a second.


[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains,

First off, I want to say that any time I can bust a 215ers balls, I'm gonna jump on it like stink on [censored]. /images/graemlins/grin.gif That being said, with the other short stack to his right, pushing any two here is definately not a good move, so I am in aggreeance with you there also. That being said, we can see from the hh that the villain very clearly was pushing any two, which is where I think that all of the hoopla came from.

Johnny

[curtains]

Johnny beef, if you know BB will fold K2s, then pushing any 2 is correct.

Im just interested in learning optimal play for SB + BB. I think its very useful to know many situations where you determine the best possible play in a perfectly played game.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Johnny beef, if you know BB will fold K2s, then pushing any 2 is correct

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point, as this is something that I totally overlooked. Thank you.


[ QUOTE ]
Im just interested in learning optimal play for SB + BB. I think its very useful to know many situations where you determine the best possible play in a perfectly played game.

[/ QUOTE ]

As am I, as I think that this is the cornerstone of solid tournament strategy.

[curtains]

Yes I just need to know how to do the math...it seems pretty complicated, Im having trouble so far. IF BB calls only 30% of hands we should push every time it seems....but if they call 40-50 it drastically gets lower. Eventually we should be able to figure out the optimal pushing range for the SB and optimal calling range for the BB, assuming they know their opponent plays perfectly.

Anyway I believe that perfect play has the SB pushing around 51% (22+,A2+,K2+,Q4o+,Q2s+,J7o+,J4s+,T9o,T7s+,98s) of the time, and the BB always calling with the top 38% (22+,A2+,K4o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q6s+,JTo,J9s+,T9s) of hands. I could be wrong about the way I figured this out however.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok but he has 4x the Bb, you are getting a great price. I think most people will be pushing with hands like J9o, but I could be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, most people won't be pushing with J9o.

This is the reverse gap concept that Bones and I discussed last night: To the average low-limit SNGer, you need a better hand to open push than you do to call an all-in.

So someone may not push with that J9o, but they'd call an all-in with it with the quickness.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay I need to figure out how to find the optimal play for both sides in this sitaution assuming we are in a vacuum where all players play perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an impossible task considering that there are so many factors that are involved in making a decision. I read a passage last night in Stewart Ruben's How Good is Your Pot-Limit Holdem in which he describes holdem as the purest form of poker due to the fact that often times a player must take a view and stick to it, because that is what poker really is all about. Poker is such a dynamic game that there really is no way to make such an assumption. This hand in my opinion is a perfect example of why we can not make this assumption as both player's actions depend upon the stand that they take.

[curtains]

Sorry perg but I don't believe that your above statement is true.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay I need to figure out how to find the optimal play for both sides in this sitaution assuming we are in a vacuum where all players play perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an impossible task considering that there are so many factors that are involved in making a decision. I read a passage last night in Stewart Ruben's How Good is Your Pot-Limit Holdem in which he describes holdem as the purest form of poker due to the fact that often times a player must take a view and stick to it, because that is what poker really is all about. Poker is such a dynamic game that there really is no way to make such an assumption. This hand in my opinion is a perfect example of why we can not make this assumption as both player's actions depend upon the stand that they take.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's impossible at all. Of course you will always have to make many adjustments while playing because of external factors, however if all players play the same and try to make the perfect move every hand, especially late when the blinds are high it shouldn't be impossible to solve.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I just need to know how to do the math...it seems pretty complicated, Im having trouble so far. IF BB calls only 30% of hands we should push every time it seems....but if they call 40-50 it drastically gets lower. Eventually we should be able to figure out the optimal pushing range for the SB and optimal calling range for the BB, assuming they know their opponent plays perfectly.

Anyway I believe that perfect play has the SB pushing around 51% (22+,A2+,K2+,Q4o+,Q2s+,J7o+,J4s+,T9o,T7s+,98s) of the time, and the BB always calling with the top 38% (22+,A2+,K4o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q6s+,JTo,J9s+,T9s) of hands. I could be wrong about the way I figured this out however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my above post, as I dont think this is possible due to the human element involved.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry perg but I don't believe that your above statement is true.

[/ QUOTE ]
Play a $22 and you'll be enlightened, biatch

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
however if all players play the same and try to make the perfect move every hand, especially late when the blinds are high it shouldn't be impossible to solve.


[/ QUOTE ]

If this were true, the only person that would be able to beat this game would be the rake. It doesn't boil down to what a player should do, rather, it boils down to what a player will do.

edit: for example, when doing an icm, you must put a person on a range of hands for a decision to be correct.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Sorry perg but I don't believe that your above statement is true.

[/ QUOTE ]
Play a $22 and you'll be enlightened, biatch

[/ QUOTE ]

perg Ive played a ton of $22s and 33s when I started 8 tabling and won at a signifigant enough rate even considering that I still had plenty to learn. I recall what they were like and would say its absolutely false that someone is more likely to call an allin with J9o than to push allin with the same number of chips.

It's an exageration of the truth that is what people want to think is true as it makes them feel superior to their opponents and helps them to feel like they have some kind of unbelieveable advantage (which of course they do but not for this reason).

Again I have played by far enough $22s and $33s in my lifetime with high success rates, Im so tired of people acting like my advice isnt applicable at those levels.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I just need to know how to do the math...it seems pretty complicated, Im having trouble so far. IF BB calls only 30% of hands we should push every time it seems....but if they call 40-50 it drastically gets lower. Eventually we should be able to figure out the optimal pushing range for the SB and optimal calling range for the BB, assuming they know their opponent plays perfectly.

Anyway I believe that perfect play has the SB pushing around 51% (22+,A2+,K2+,Q4o+,Q2s+,J7o+,J4s+,T9o,T7s+,98s) of the time, and the BB always calling with the top 38% (22+,A2+,K4o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q6s+,JTo,J9s+,T9s) of hands. I could be wrong about the way I figured this out however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Using % of K-S rankings, the equilibrium ranges are around 51/39 for pushing/calling.

eastbay

[bones]

Just happened:

Seat 2: bhaas ( $880 )
Seat 3: Tito421 ( $1250 )
Seat 6: ComicRyan ( $770 )
Seat 7: kio76 ( $860 )
Seat 9: DonkeysAlwaysDraw ( $1885 )
Seat 10: dpreid ( $2355 )
Trny:13917557 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DonkeysAlwaysDraw [ Kd 8c ]
dpreid folds.
bhaas folds.
Tito421 folds.
ComicRyan folds.
kio76 calls [100].
DonkeysAlwaysDraw is all-In [1685]
Tito421: don't know how many winning hands i've folded this game
kio76 is all-In [660]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, 8s, Td ]
Tito421: don't wanna know
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
kio76 shows [ Js, Th ] two pairs, jacks and tens.
DonkeysAlwaysDraw shows [ Kd, 8c ] a pair of eights.
DonkeysAlwaysDraw wins 1025 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of eights.
kio76 wins 1720 chips from the main pot with t

I'll post more after this set. Happens constantly, btw.

[bones]

It's really an odd phenomenon in the 10s and 20s. It's rare to see pushes with 22-44, but you CONSTANTLY see calls with it. Weak Ks and QT as well. I don't wanna clog up the boards and its a bit OT, but it's really something interesting.

Edit: Okay, I will clog up the boards. I think it's the "I know you are bluffing, so I'll call and prove it" mentality.
Perhaps it's an anomaly that I've just been seeing a lot of lately, but I don't think it is.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Sorry perg but I don't believe that your above statement is true.

[/ QUOTE ]
Play a $22 and you'll be enlightened, biatch

[/ QUOTE ]

perg Ive played a ton of $22s and 33s when I started 8 tabling and won at a signifigant enough rate even considering that I still had plenty to learn. I recall what they were like and would say its absolutely false that someone is more likely to call an allin with J9o than to push allin with the same number of chips.

It's an exageration of the truth that is what people want to think is true as it makes them feel superior to their opponents and helps them to feel like they have some kind of unbelieveable advantage (which of course they do but not for this reason).

Again I have played by far enough $22s and $33s in my lifetime with high success rates, Im so tired of people acting like my advice isnt applicable at those levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy crap, curtains, of all people., I'm the least likely to dismiss your opinoins and ideas. YTou're like...a god or something. I'm not sayin your advice isn't applicable, I'm just syain how i interpere the thought process.

"Eww, J9o, I can't push"

"That's the fifth time he's pushed. Suck my J9o, biatch":

That's all I'm sayin man. I [censored] idolize you, simple as t that. I don't think I'm superios rot my opponents, in fact I made a post about that a while bnack. But dman...I'm tellin you, I mean no disrepsect at all. I'd give anything to play like you. Just sayin that people think way differently at these levels, and I've seen it a ton.

Again, this could just be my opbersvation, but that's what I see. And when I think of the people that I'm glad ever respond to my posts, and I hope to some day play like, you're like #1. BNut if I actually say that, I become gay like Yugo.

[curtains]

lol Its okay, Im only respoding to the post that said something like "play the $22s before you are enlighetened", since I have played the $22s and $33s a lot and coach people that play them I feel like I have some understanding.

There are maybe some players that play like that but I feel that they are the minority. I felt like I had a lot of steal equity most of the time in the lower buyins. I wasn't trying to insult or offend you and I didn't think you were trying to do the same to me. I just don't think it's a completely accurate portrayl of the "average" low limit buyin player.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I just need to know how to do the math...it seems pretty complicated, Im having trouble so far. IF BB calls only 30% of hands we should push every time it seems....but if they call 40-50 it drastically gets lower. Eventually we should be able to figure out the optimal pushing range for the SB and optimal calling range for the BB, assuming they know their opponent plays perfectly.

Anyway I believe that perfect play has the SB pushing around 51% (22+,A2+,K2+,Q4o+,Q2s+,J7o+,J4s+,T9o,T7s+,98s) of the time, and the BB always calling with the top 38% (22+,A2+,K4o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q6s+,JTo,J9s+,T9s) of hands. I could be wrong about the way I figured this out however.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that hard to do using the "compute all" feature in Eastbay's tool. If you check out his new lesson, "Mind the Gap," he explains how to do it.

btw: thanks yet again, eastbay. you are the man.

[Newt_Buggs]

in reference to the reverse gap
[ QUOTE ]

There are maybe some players that play like that but I feel that they are the minority.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to emphasise this. I see even extreme examples of the reverse gap in the $50s but that doesn't mean that its a normal occurence. I doubt that the $11s are different enough to tilt it to the norm.

[curtains]

Well yeah, basically you remember it a lot more when someone does something stupid as opposed to when they simply make a normal raise.

[mike28]

So you're the spitecaller that sucked out on my suckout.

I'm wondering why this is a clear fold for me (As the SB)

Pushing the next hand with 2 more behind me including the monster stack doesn't seem too appealing. Taking a hit from the blind puts me to 435 and then Sabrazack get's odd to call with blank cards.

I've only got 100 or so 22s under my belt this week (just started) enlighten me?

[curtains]

mike there is someone else with a short stack. There is not a constant onus on you to steal chips, itd be nice, but your opponent has to make a move to.

It's extremely important to get 3rd place and you should do everything possible to make this as likely as possible. This doesnt always mean just going allin with any 2 the first chance you get. It sometimes means folding and giving yourself almost no fold equity and simply hoping to outlast the other player. Note that I don't think your push from the SB is terrible against a typical partypoker player, but it's important not to have so much fear of being shortstacked, as it happens sometimes. If you start showing reckless aggression while your opponent sits tight, you could easily make yourself a much larger underdog to get 3rd place.