Four Flush vs. Paired Door Card

[Spladle Master]

Comments on all streets appreciated.

7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___completes
Seat 2: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/club.gif___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls___calls
Hero: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls___calls

4th Street - (6.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif___raises___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls___calls
Hero: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif___double raises
Seat 8: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets___calls

5th Street - (11.00 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 4: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Hero: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets

6th Street - (15.00 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks
Seat 4: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks
Hero: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks

River - (15.00 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif xx___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif xx___bets
Hero: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif xx___calls

Total pot: (17.00 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $65 | Rake: $3

Seat 4: [ 8c Ac Td 7s 4h 7h Kd ] [ a pair of sevens -- Ac,Kd,Td,7s,7h ]

[Spladle Master]

The converter isn't showing it, but seat 8 had 99 in the hole and took the pot.

[CJC]

Generally not a good idea to re-raise with a flush draw when someone before you has ALREADY raised a paired doorcard that has lead out..

Even in funky online games.

A good portion of the time you should fold

CJ

[MrBlueNose]

I really really hate the double raise on 4th, although I can't decide whether it's better than cold-calling. Actually after seat 1 has completed then raised, I fold it...depending on read on him that is.

However in saying that, why not raise 5th, so you can either take the free card on 6th, or at that point bet for value(not that it mattered in this hand). It can also get you a free showdown if say you pair a king but don't think its good.

[Bartholow]

I can't imagine not raising on 3rd with your hand. Flush is almost completely live, all your pair cards completely live.

Since you haven't given us any info on the players, I think I'd just call on 4th, but I wouldn't be willing to fold. If it gets capped back to you you might want to fold.

[beta1607]

I complete 3rd here almost everytime. You have a live flush draw and only small cards behind with a K up.

Having not completed, you telegraphed that you did not have KK on 3rd, so on 4th I either cold call or single raise, there is no value in the double bet which could potentiall shut other players out which is not what you want.

The rest of the hand is standard.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
I really really hate the double raise on 4th, although I can't decide whether it's better than cold-calling. Actually after seat 1 has completed then raised, I fold it...depending on read on him that is.

However in saying that, why not raise 5th, so you can either take the free card on 6th, or at that point bet for value(not that it mattered in this hand). It can also get you a free showdown if say you pair a king but don't think its good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raised fourth for value. Seat 8 could easily have just the pair of fives and Seat 1 a pair of eights. I had two live overcards and my flush draw was ridiculously live. When Seat 8 bet fifth I couldn't figure out what the hell he had. If he had trip fives then I definitely didn't want to raise. As it was I got a free card on sixth anyway, though I would've bet sixth if I caught a king or queen and taken a free showdown if I didn't improve.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine not raising on 3rd with your hand. Flush is almost completely live, all your pair cards completely live.

Since you haven't given us any info on the players, I think I'd just call on 4th, but I wouldn't be willing to fold. If it gets capped back to you you might want to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising on third is definitely something I considered. In retrospect I probably should've. On fourth I raised partly for value and partly for information. If anyone else had put in another raise after me I would've gotten scared. Since no one did I figured trips weren't out, but the bet on fifth just confused me, so I played it passive from there on out.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
there is no value in the double bet which could potentiall shut other players out which is not what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha-ha, there is no way I'm shutting anybody out with a double raise. 8AT7 came along for the ride without even a three-flush.

[theben]

i dont like getting really aggro w/ the 4-flush against the paired door, especially w/ all those other players in. just call, keep people in and let them try to drawout with thier 2paired hands and flush 'em

[CJC]

this was a live $20-40 game?

I have skimmed thru several analysis so far, and honestly, can't believe what I have read in some of them.

I am going to assume posters think this is just a crazy crazy loose online game. But that is how people get in trouble also ( particularly when they move up in limits )

Just something to think about.

I would love for some of you to answer my title question.

Thanks,

CJ /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[beta1607]

I have never played 20/40 live but my analysis would certainly be the same for 10/20 online which I do play. Unless you have a read for the players as absolute donkey calling stations (which was not in the OP) then the double bet is just plain bad.

[beta1607]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there is no value in the double bet which could potentiall shut other players out which is not what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha-ha, there is no way I'm shutting anybody out with a double raise. 8AT7 came along for the ride without even a three-flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you not shutting anyone out? Do you have reads - if so they need to be in the OP so we can comment accordingly.

One of my 2p2 pet peeves is people being critical of advice because they have an important read they never bothered to share...

[CJC]

[ QUOTE ]
then the double bet is just plain bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this %100

CJ

[frappeboy]

I disagree with all of you, I think the double raise is very good. Even if seat 8 has trip 5s you most likely have the best drawing hand, which means with 4 players you probably have pot odds. Seat 1 and 4 are along for the ride, which is the reason you raise here for value. If you were heads up against the 5s then folding would probably be correct against a decent player.

I think most players play flush draws way too passively in multi-way pots... When you have a pot equity advantage you've got to exploit it and calling is not the way to do that here.

[vintage_sara]

Frappe, I completely disagree with you and as you know I don't do that often. I don't think he has the best drawing hand and you have no way to know that for certain. If in fact the player has three fives, he has the best drawing hand to a full house. You have a drawing hand that can win only if the other player does not improve and if he or she does then you are drawing dead.

This move is correct if all the players have one pair, only slightly incorrect if one of the players has two small pair, the other a big pair, and someone is drawing to a lower flush draw (but more correct if you can get the free card and do not get reraised) and incorrect if one of the players has trips.

I am all about playing live flush draws aggressively but give me an advantage of at least having a straight flush draw or straight possibility too before I go hog wild.

This is all stated without information about the game and the players. I have been known to play very aggressively in different spots with hands like this or aces with a live three flush when someone pairs their door. I have to believe though that the move gives me some advantage. I am more apt to do it when the hand I truly have is a bit disguised or can be disguised and the conditions are right such as the person who pairs their door card is what I call an STF=Super Target Fish.

[BeerMoney]

I'm glad you said this.. However.. Heads up against trips I believe you're 3:1 against. So, he's getting 3:1 on his money. That makes it an even money proposition IF his opponent has trips And the two other opponents never win when he hits his big hand.

Clearly this is -EV.

IF his opponent does not have trips, has 2 pair, or something else, he is in good shape, although not great shape against two pair and the other hands.

[BeerMoney]

You're forgetting the chances hero goes runner runner runner for quads or a boat.

[frappeboy]

I ran a high speed simulation with the following guess:

Hero has: (Qc 6c) Kc 4c
Seat 8 has: (Tc 5d) 5s 5h
Seat 4 has: (10s 7h) 10d 7s
Seat 1 has: (10h 6h) 8h Jh

I figured this combination of hands is about the worse you can expect. Seat 8 may not have trips, seat 4 could have an open ender etc, which would all be better for you. Here are the results:

Hero (4 flush): 33.44%
Seat 8 (trips): 39.5%
Seat 4 (2 pair): 9.73%
Seat 1 (4 flush): 17.33%

So given these hands, you have a pot equity edge. The only time you don't have an edge is if:

A) 2 people have trips
B) Someone has a higher flush draw and another has trips

Given the data, I still like raising. Of course you are banking on the fact that everyone calls, if someone folds your hand really goes down in value, but it looks like 1 more bet isn't going to knock anyone out.

[BeerMoney]

You made a lot of dead tens.. Here's a similar simulation, but with live cards..

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Qc 6c 4c 112373 22.47 387627 77.53 0 0.00 0.225
5s Jc 5d 5h 188842 37.77 311158 62.23 0 0.00 0.378
Ts 7s Td 7h 141813 28.36 358187 71.64 0 0.00 0.284
Jh 8h 6h 2h 56972 11.39 443028 88.61 0 0.00 0.114

[CJC]

Hello,
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with all of you, I think the double raise is very good

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think most players play flush draws way too passively in multi-way pots... When you have a pot equity advantage you've got to exploit it and calling is not the way to do that here.


[/ QUOTE ]

The point to the whole debate is that a paired doorcard bet, then another opponent raised that.. then the flush draw RE-RAISED both them.

No, it isn't a good idea.. period!! Doesn't matter if the whole dam table is in the pot.. and even if the whole table is filled with clueless pinheads, even pinheads get real cards once in a while too.

I do agree with your overall assement concerning players playing passively in multiway pots with big draws though. There are certainly times you want extra bets in the pot.

CJ

[frappeboy]

Beer,

Make sure to account for dead cards on 3rd street, but even here it shows a raise is probably correct. This is one of the worst scenarios and you have a very slight negative EV for the raise, you lose exact 1/10bb by raising. Imagine if everyone had weaker hands?

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Beer,

Make sure to account for dead cards on 3rd street, but even here it shows a raise is probably correct. This is one of the worst scenarios and you have a very slight negative EV for the raise, you lose exact 1/10bb by raising. Imagine if everyone had weaker hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup..

I remember a 5/10 hand at foxwoods very similar to this where i was confident my opponent had trip kings (they were buried and he caught a king on 4th..) anyway, i had 3 other opponents, and i poured money in anyway. I thought when i ran the sim heads up, i thought I was 3:1 against him.

I'm a big proponent to pumping up flush draws, as you saw when we played together yesterday. In fact, I think a lot of people would be better off not thinking of draws like this as draws, but simply in terms of their equity. An OESFD on 4th has a better chance of winning the pot then a dead pair of deuces. IF the hand was shown down there, the deuces would win, but in reality, its the "draw" that's ahead and favored to win.

[frappeboy]

Beer,

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, I think a lot of people would be better off not thinking of draws like this as draws, but simply in terms of their equity

[/ QUOTE ]

You hit the nail on the head. This is how you should think of all hands while playing. And your pot equity can greatly change based on the cards that are out, this is what makes stud so complex.

I think overall I like raising this hand, but I will admit you can get punished if you run into 2 great hands. I just think overall, against the variety of hands they can have, raising will show a profit in the long run.

On the flip side, I think things change if you know some of the players you are against. For instance if chef/roland/tincards or any other good/tight player raised the open 5s here, I might muck the hand, because they must have trips and if the 5s have trips too you are screwed.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]


You made a lot of dead tens.. Here's a similar simulation, but with live cards..

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Qc 6c 4c 112373 22.47 387627 77.53 0 0.00


[/ QUOTE ]

There is also the issue of you losing an extra bet or two when the 555 fills up. That will occur with enough freqency that it's almost the the equivalent of killing 2-3 of your flush outs.

[vintage_sara]

Thank you. That's exactly the point. If they go to war with you again on 6th if you catch the "flush"...how good are you? Can you fold? And when they bet into you on the river and catch your flush then, do you raise? And if you get reraised, do you call?

When you can't somewhat comfortably stay aggressive on a hand, it's not really the spot you want to be in.

[vintage_sara]

very true...it also seems that he is basing his play on the result verses what is happening. I don't care if the guy shows 99, 55 on the end and wins. What did you think he had? What were your reasons for doing what you did?

The reasons are important. It is not the result. That's what takes you from being good to being great.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you. That's exactly the point. If they go to war with you again on 6th if you catch the "flush"...how good are you? Can you fold? And when they bet into you on the river and catch your flush then, do you raise? And if you get reraised, do you call?

When you can't somewhat comfortably stay aggressive on a hand, it's not really the spot you want to be in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you can't forget about the money that's already in the pot. And, you also can't discard the times when we will hit our flush and collect extra bets from the other yahoos in the pot. For example, perhaps we hit our flizzie on 5th, and the trips bet, and we get into a raising war, the whole time the other two bozos are contributing money to both of us, and mainly to us.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]

The point to the whole debate is that a paired doorcard bet, then another opponent raised that.. then the flush draw RE-RAISED both them.



[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so what do you put them on? I put the 5's on trips, but not 100% of the time. I figure the guy who just raised him for a big buried pair, or tens.. The guy with the big pair is attached to his hand and putting the guy with the 5's on a hand he can beat.

[ QUOTE ]

No, it isn't a good idea.. period!!


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so we don't get to discuss it? Even when the simulations seem to point to the fact that it is a hand worth fighting over?

[ QUOTE ]

Doesn't matter if the whole dam table is in the pot..


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh really? Let me ask you this.. What do you do if you have trips on 5th street, and u know one of your opponents has a made straight, all your cards are live and you're getting 6 way action? Do you fold? Do you call, or do you just raise?


[ QUOTE ]

I do agree with your overall assement concerning players playing passively in multiway pots with big draws though. There are certainly times you want extra bets in the pot.

CJ

[/ QUOTE ]

You say this like its rare. It is usually the situation that you want more bets in the pot, it is rare that you don't.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you not shutting anyone out? Do you have reads - if so they need to be in the OP so we can comment accordingly.

One of my 2p2 pet peeves is people being critical of advice because they have an important read they never bothered to share...

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case I owe you an apology. I've been posting several hands recently from a session I played a few weeks back, and they all involve the same players. I've been repeatedly referring to the players as terrible and making marginal plays to get value out of my hands because of that. This was one of those times, and I really should've said that in the OP.

Also this is the first hand I've posted in awhile that got more than three replies.

[Spladle Master]

Here's a sim run with what they actually had (except for Seat 1, I had to guess what his hole cards were). I included dead cards in this simulation.

7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Qc 6c 4c 163594 32.72 336403 67.28 3 0.00 0.327
7s Ac 8c Td 27831 5.57 472140 94.43 29 0.01 0.056
9s 5s 9d 5h 200579 40.12 299421 59.88 0 0.00 0.401
8d Ah Jh 8h 107966 21.59 392006 78.40 28 0.01 0.216

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you. That's exactly the point. If they go to war with you again on 6th if you catch the "flush"...how good are you? Can you fold? And when they bet into you on the river and catch your flush then, do you raise? And if you get reraised, do you call?

When you can't somewhat comfortably stay aggressive on a hand, it's not really the spot you want to be in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to war on 6th with a flush. If they bet the river I would raise and fold to a three-bet, and I would be correct in doing so ~100% of the time against this player.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
very true...it also seems that he is basing his play on the result verses what is happening. I don't care if the guy shows 99, 55 on the end and wins. What did you think he had? What were your reasons for doing what you did?

The reasons are important. It is not the result. That's what takes you from being good to being great.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I didn't know what the results were going to be when I made the play. At the time I didn't even give him credit for two pair. If he'd had trips on fourth he would have double bet, and if someone had raised that I would have folded immediately. I would have called a single double bet but not raised it and folded if he made an obvious full house on a later street. When he called my double raise I gave him credit for two pair, but I didn't think he'd bet on fifth with two pair, so I got confused and just called. If I'd stopped to think about it I'd have raised fifth too.

7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Qc 6c 4c 2d 159738 31.95 340262 68.05 0 0.00 0.319
7s Ac 8c Td 4h 25225 5.04 474773 94.95 2 0.00 0.050
9s 5s 9d Kh 5h 226521 45.30 273479 54.70 0 0.00 0.453
3s 8d Ah Jh 8h 88514 17.70 411484 82.30 2 0.00 0.177

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]

Seat 8 could easily have just the pair of fives and Seat 1 a pair of eights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, do you say this because you have a read on these players or just because? I find that there are times they will each have only 1-pair each, but EASILY? I dont think so, and certainly not often. If they each only have 1 pair then what are you putting them on? As i recall, the J8 completed, i dont think he has NOTHIGN AT ALL, and ANY hand he completes on 3rd is better on 4th than your potential 1 pair. 3-flush now has a 4-flush and pair of Js is very possibly now Js up if hes raising 5s, or a hidden overpair which makes your K pair holding up very unlikely, if you even hit it. I would seriously reconsider your reads here, they seem like an excuse for action rather than a thought out read to me.

[ QUOTE ]

I had two live overcards and my flush draw was ridiculously live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, your 2 live overcards are very dirty outs. I doubt they will hold often even when you manage to catch one. Also, "ridiclously live" is extremely generous. 1 dead club for sure and theres a good chance the bringin had 1-2 more in the hole, which would explain a 3rd street call and a 4th street fold when he misses and you catch. While the hand is certainly playable, i think you are giving it far too much credit for its outs.

Also, you posted that you were raising half for value and half for info. It seems like a single gets you better value when he doesnt have a set and grants you the exact same info as a double but without risking as many chips.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you. That's exactly the point. If they go to war with you again on 6th if you catch the "flush"...how good are you? Can you fold? And when they bet into you on the river and catch your flush then, do you raise? And if you get reraised, do you call?

When you can't somewhat comfortably stay aggressive on a hand, it's not really the spot you want to be in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you, It's a mistake to be drawing at a hand that could be beat as you make it. Even if you make the flush on 5th, you arent home free since the trips (and any other two pair hands) still have a good chance to suck out on you.

Aswell, because you have been playing an agressive line, it's especially likely that you will be check raised on river thus getting nailed for 2 big bets on the river.

But even beyond that, its just not a good practice to sink a large amount of money on the early streets with your flush draws. Since there is still a very good chance that you won't make your flush.

As Mike Caro has observed, agression in 7 stud is rarely wrong, often isn't right either. Myself, I would probably take this hand to the river but try and do so cheaply, and I wouldn't call two bets cold on 4th.

[CJC]

Hello,

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do if you have trips on 5th street, and u know one of your opponents has a made straight, all your cards are live and you're getting 6 way action

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank You!! You are making my point. You have a draw to hand that will Most likely win if made, in a big pot.

The example given above was on 4th street, with just a flush draw hand, against a paired doorcard that bet, then it was raised again.. You could be easily against 2 big hands. Now if you want to chase possible trips on 4th street with just a flush draw.. be my guest.

Now maybe I am not just used to these funky online games. But I am telling you ( from years of experience here ), if you play that way in the middle limit games on up.. you will go broke. ( or any game where the players are halfway sane )

You know, since my brief return here, I have read lots of posts, and it seems like people in stud are having a Hold'Em mentality.. ( looking for reasons to call ).. this is a game where you had better be looking for reasons to fold.

This comes from someone who is probably more loose aggressive ( especially aggressive ) than most. Plenty of people on this forum have seen me play live too. They will tell you. I am ALWAYS looking for places to outplay my opponents on the big bet streets.

CJ

[BeerMoney]

CJC, when I make a loose call, I always defend myself with the last sentence at the bottom of page 120 in 7CSFAP:

"Remember, in 7 card stud, you are almost never drawing that slim."

[vintage_sara]

[ QUOTE ]
But even beyond that, its just not a good practice to sink a large amount of money on the early streets with your flush draws. Since there is still a very good chance that you won't make your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that in this particular situation, I would not sink a large amount of money with a flush draw on 4th unless I had an absolutely great read on the players and the way the hand is playing. If I think they both have only a pair on 4th, I have a large flush draw that I believe is the best flush draw out there, as the money favorite at this point, I would put as much money as I could into the pot (being reasonably sure I wouldn't eliminate players) at this point.

The problem with this hand is unless you have a very good read, the possibility of the guy have three 5s is strong, much more so than if he had a jack in the door and caught a jack--the way the action played.

[CJC]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]

You know, since my brief return here, I have read lots of posts, and it seems like people in stud are having a Hold'Em mentality.. ( looking for reasons to call ).. this is a game where you had better be looking for reasons to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhh, in Hold 'Em you arent supposed to be looking for reasons to call, this is pointed out in EVERY book on Hold 'Em that you'll ever read. As i recall, due to the tremendous pot odds you are getting as a result of the antes + bringin you are usually looking for reasons to call in 7-Stud. Well, maybe not looking for reasons to call, but your odds are generally about 2-1 or better on any given 4th street barring very low antes and almost no hand is less than a 33% fav. to win. There's a good chance your are playing weaker and tighter than you seem to think...

[CJC]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a good chance your are playing weaker and tighter than you seem to think...


[/ QUOTE ]

The top ten posters from the past 7 years I have been here will tell you otherwise!! I can GUARANTEE you that.

I never mentioned anything about Hold'Em books, I know what most mention ( not looking to call ).. I mearly mentioned the mentality of a whole crapload of players. ( who could stand to study a book or two )............. and sorry to say this but its true..... just because someone posts here, don't mean they know what the hell they are talking about.

CJ

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's a good chance your are playing weaker and tighter than you seem to think...


[/ QUOTE ]

The top ten posters from the past 7 years I have been here will tell you otherwise!! I can GUARANTEE you that.

I never mentioned anything about Hold'Em books, I know what most mention ( not looking to call ).. I mearly mentioned the mentality of a whole crapload of players. ( who could stand to study a book or two )............. and sorry to say this but its true..... just because someone posts here, don't mean they know what the hell they are talking about.

CJ

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1. You never mentioned anything about that Hold Em mentality belonging to select players, you said people are "in THE hold em mentality", implying that that is THE hold em mentality. The "looking for reaons to call" mentality and the statement "a lot of people are in it" you said in reply could BE TRUE IN ANY FORM OF POKER, theres fish everywhere, not just HE. There are always a crapload of people with that mentality, reconsider your wording before getting all pissed off when a player corrects you on the legitimacy of your statement.

2. I dont care what a crapload of other people say, or whether or not you actually are weaker/tighter, i just suggested the possibility. If youve read 7CSFAP youd see that youre playing most of the same hands as he suggests playing, except judging from your post you make very "i wanna call" bias reads, like seeing someone pair his door and someone else play a Jh8h strongly into that pair, and still making the read, "they might each only have 1 low to mid pair."

3. You attack my interpretation of YOUR poorly written line on poker mentality and my suggestion that you arent as loose/aggressive as you think, then ignore every piece of advice i make on the ACTUAL HAND IN QUESTION and say i dont know what im talking about? What was the result then, i must have been way off if youre giving me ZERO credibility.

If you cant take the response dont ask the question. Thats what i usually tell girls when they ask if theyre fat, but apparently theres some overly sensitive poker players who need the same reminding.

[Andy B]

Good thread, guys. I think that fourth street is a call. It turns out that the other guys were a little light this go ‘round, but there is nothing to prevent either of them from having a real hand. There is even a chance that we don’t have the best flush draw here. And whaddya know, the fourth-street raiser had the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif in the hole. Of course, he was raising because he paired his, ahem, off-suit Eight in the hole. We might be in good shape even if the bettor has trip Fives, but that’s really only if the other guys have hopeless hands. Say, AT87.

I like to push my flush draws as much as the next guy. When two other people are showing aggression, though, it gives me pause, even if they are idiots. It isn't enough to get me to fold, but it is enough to get me to not raise.

And yeah, I raise third street more often than not.

I will state for the record that I think that CJC is the one poster who I think thinks the most like I do. He’s anything but weak-tight.

Don’t know if I’m in the top ten, though.

[ChipLeader]

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I will state for the record that I think that CJC is the one poster who I think thinks the most like I do. He’s anything but weak-tight.

Don’t know if I’m in the top ten, though.

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Once again to clarify, i suggested he was more weak/tight than he may think. Couple key words, i wasnt making a read on him based on one thread, which is why i didnt say "you are", i said "you might be". Second, i didnt say he might be weak/tight, i said his play may be more weak/tight then he realizes, as in he may think he is extremely aggressive but is actually just standard aggressive.