NL vs limit starting hands

[jen]

I'm thinking of trying my first NL hold'em game. I'm pretty comfortable with mid-limit (20-40ish) games.

Are there any general principles about what good starting hands are in NL vs limit games (especially for a beginner)? Or am I going to have to pay for my education...

Thanks.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

In very simplistic terms, one of the main ways you make money in a limit game is by starting with better cards than your opponents. In NL/PL, the main way is by fooling your opponents into making incorrect folds or big calls.

Implied odds typically rule in a big bet game. When the money is really deep, I will raise preflop with hands like 53s, simply because an opponent with QQ or the like might pay me off their entire stack when the board on the end reads QJ642. If I don't have to put in too much money before I make my hand, and can get paid off big once I do make it, it really isn't so important how weak it was preflop.

This doesn't mean you should fold everytime you face a huge river bet and don't have the absolute nuts. It does mean you shouldn't think something like there's no way he could have 53 (the only hand that beats you) because he raised preflop. Even from a great player, sometimes anything is possible. In fact, it is really only the weak-tight players who will never show up with a hand like 53 in a raised pot.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[RollaJ]

While I agree fully with playing hands you would never think of playing in a limit game, you should not play thim for too big a raise (lets say over 3 times the BB) as if you dont hit 2 pair on the flop you are usually going to be bet out of the hand, as people will put a lot of money behind top pair if they hit it on the flop as well as over pairs in the pocket, so you basically have /forums/images/icons/grin.gif to get in cheap, and if you hit, the sky is the limit

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Yes, you must get in cheap. But to me cheap doesn't mean some multiple of the blinds. Cheap means some percentage of how much you will likely win after you hit your hand.

If the blinds are 5,10, and it costs me $100 to see the flop with a marginal hand, that's perfectly accpetable if I will lose only $100 when I miss, but I know the guy will pay me off an average of $5000 when I hit.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[jen]

Hmmm. Seems kind of tricky to pick the right spots.

I'll give it a try and see how it goes.

[RollaJ]

I think in a perfect world where I have unlimited money that may be the correct way to play it, but as opposed to just worrying about how much I may win I must also protect my stack and hope to get my money in when I have the best of it. Also there is no way to know that the other guy will pay you off when you hit your 5-3 and make 2 pair a set or a straight. If he was betting A-K or A-Q he very may well fold to a bet or raise. I stand by my belief that you should have to get in very cheap, and I personally focus more on blind ratio as this very often (usually) indicates the strength of the opponents hand, as well as the size of my stack....I want to make sure I still have money left when I get a premium hand

[thebroker]

..........calling up to ten percent of your stack with a pocket pair or suited connector is fine. If you can win at least 15 or 20 times the preflop amount when you hit. Your not really looking for strong starting hands in pot-limit or no-limit, you're looking for strong situations. You find a guy who will commit his whole stack AFTER the flop with AA or KK and make a ton of cash.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Of course you can never KNOW whether or not they will pay you off. But you can make educated guesses that have some reasonable accuracy. You can be aware of the player's history, and whether or not he's prone to paying off. If I know nothing about the person, I will be quite a bit less inclined to make plays that depend upon his future actions in the hand, either letting himself get stuck, OR his ability to make a reasonably big laydown.

Some of the biggest pots I've ever won in a PLH game were with relatively lousy starting cards. And sometimes I called raises preflop and/or pot-sized bets on the flop. When you raise to $15 preflop, call a reraise to $45, and then call the $100 bet on the flop, it's tough for an opponent to laydown top set to your gutshot straight catch on the turn that requires you to have started the whole hand with 53. Often they will bet $200-300 at you on the turn, and when you raise to $1000 they will at least call and sometimes reraise big. They figure you have an underset or overpair to their TT on the T26-4 board. More than once I've put in that $150 or so preflop and on the flop, and then won $3-5000 on the turn and river.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Phat Mack]

I can't dispute anything Greg says, especially as it pertains to pot limit. In no limit, as a beginner, I think you should be playing big cards: high pairs and AK etc. Try to flop a made hand (a set or top pair, top kicker) and get your stack in the middle. Don't let your opponents see cheap flops; don't let them see fourth street at all. Buy in cheap and buy in often. Save the tricky stuff for when you have more experience. JMO, Mack

[jen]

> get your stack in the middle

What does that mean?

Also, I heard somewhere that if I want to bet pre-flop, I should always raise the same amount -- something like 3x the BB. And then on later streets, if I want to bet, just bet the pot. Is that right?

[Phat Mack]

> get your stack in the middle

What does that mean?

I mean bet all your chips. In the example Greg cites, he and his opponent have $3-5000. Flop is T62; opponent has TT, Greg has 53. If opponent bets a pot sized bet of $150, Greg is getting over 20:1 for a 12:1 gutshot if he hits a 4, and can get his opponent to commit his entire stack. On the other hand, if his opponent had bet $3000, Greg would only have been getting a little better than 1:1 for his gut shot. And good things can happen with the $3000 bet. An opponent with AA, for example, might assume that TT doesn't want callers and put him on JJ or AT, and foolishly call.

Also, I heard somewhere that if I want to bet pre-flop, I should always raise the same amount -- something like 3x the BB.

If you do this, it will help to disguise your hands. If you do this with a big hand like AA, it may give an opponent a chance to hit two pair or a set. Beware.

And then on later streets, if I want to bet, just bet the pot. Is that right?

If you bet the pot, make sure that your opponent(s) are getting the wrong odds to call. If you have TT; flop is Tc 9c 5h; a pot sized bet might invite all sorts of unwanted company. If you are in a no limit game with players who have come to no limit through playing tournaments, they may be overly concerned with stack preservation and make too-small bets.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Phat Mack and I clearly disagree. I love opponents who would bet $3000 into a $150 pot. They make it very easy for me to make good decisions.

I generally agree with what you said. Until you gain enough experience to have a good idea of when to bet some other amount, when you're going to bet or raise, make it the pot. So, if nobody else has come in preflop, 3xBB is just about right. Similarly, if the pot is $115, betting $100 instead is of course OK. Rounding off to the nearest even amount should have little impact on people's decisions.

If you wish to reduce your variance a little, use a figure like 1/2 the pot, or 2/3 the pot, as your guide. The key at this stage is to pick a reasonable amount and always do it the same, so people can't read your hand by your bet size.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Lucky]

I've been reading this forum for awhile, and I just signed up. First, let me say that this is absolutely the best poker sight anywhere, and Greg is the shiznit.

I was curious as to:

1. What is the best way to continue to study NLHE, in terms of books or software?

2. When playing at Paradise, am I better off on the Sit and Go's or ring NL games, i.e. pros and cons of each?


I've been beating both for a while, but I'm sure luck is a big part of that. Your advice is appreciated.

[Phat Mack]

I love opponents who would bet $3000 into a $150 pot. They make it very easy for me to make good decisions.

Greg is right, of course. There is no reason to bet $3000 into a $150 pot unless greed or irritation will cause your opponent to make a foolish call. However, I still have to caution against playing draws in no limit until a player has some experience, and to be aware of the drawing opportunities they are providing by their bet sizes.

[MHoydilla]

shh be quiet your giving too much away, joking lol. Your dead on with playing hands relative to stack size and potential winnings after the flop dictating what hands to be played. I feel if the stacks sizes are massive compared to big blinds 300-1000x if you play better than opponents almost any hand is playable in nolimit, more so than potlimit, in nolimit a great players ev is almost always earned postflop unlike limit games wheres its (EV) earned preflop. Also if some wants to bet 5-20 times the pot godbless as I and most good no limit plays will breakem with ease. Just my thoughts hope it helps..., PS hope we can get a nolimit game going during the WSOP at a casino or private just email me if your planing to come out to vegas for WSOP, (and no my name isn't DAVE)

[758219]

I only play a pair of aces preflop, and only if it doesn't cost me much, or I call/raise all-in. On the flop I follow the rule of no-set-no-bet. If I flop a set, it needs to be the nuts, otherwise I get ready to fold for any major bet, just like I do if someone else might have made the nuts on the turn or river and bets big enough. I don't take any major chances. A pair of kings might look big preflop or as an overpair on the flop, but just consider a pair of aces and you have nothing, and an overpair on the flop is nothing, as two pair, set, draw can beat it. If I am on the button, no one has raised, then I play a pair of kings and a pair of queens, and of course if no set, no bet.

The hands that can make big hands go up in value, the others mostly going down in value. Suited connectors, and small pairs, can be played, at least later, if they are often enough called for big enough money when one makes enough with them; if not, then there are very few hands that can be played, at least earlier. But you don't need to play that kind of a table.

[Acesover8s]

[Lurker]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />

1. What is the best way to continue to study NLHE, in terms of books or software?

2. When playing at Paradise, am I better off on the Sit and Go's or ring NL games, i.e. pros and cons of each?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I think the standard book people recommend is Ciaffone's NL/PL book. You can find it on Amazon.

2. Whether you should play tourneys or ring games depends on which set of skills you want to learn. Ring players get unlimited rebuys, and the stack sizes are usually much larger relative to the blinds than they are in tourneys. This changes the optimal strategy considerably.

[limon]

just be careful who your sitting next to. if you plan on taking advantage of a sleepy disorganized old man it just might be o'neil longson.