When to stop in cash games...

[The_Missile]

This may be the wrong place to ask such a question, but I have a question regarding winnings in a single session of a live cash game.

Does anyone have a formula for when they think it would be best to "cash out" and take what you've won? Or not even a formula, maybe more like a strategy or a specific point (maybe 6 times the amount of chips you started with or something like that).

Any ideas would be helpful. Thanks.

The_Missile

[Greg J]

Theoretically, never.

Practically, it depends. Are you tired? Distracted? Pissed off? Horny for the cocktail waitress to the point it's distracting from yr game? Tilting from having yr Aces cracked?

As long as the game is good and there are no other extraneous factors, you would keep playing forever no matter how much you had won or lost up to that point.

[Rasputin]

When you're no longer one of the two or three best players at the table, dinner time, or bed time, whichever comes first.

[slavic]

Greg J, said it already, but in general

If you have an edge you should never get up.
If you do not have an edge you should never sit down.
If the game goes bad you should leave or (if available) change games.

So, gee that's real helpfull huh? What you'll notice is not said is, if your up quit, and if your down stay until your even. Those are just traps that lead to some very bad things, so here is how I handle my live play, and it is just that I have a set time that I am going to play for. Most days it's 8 hours though I reserve the right to extend that time based on game conditions and a few other items. I generally don't go much past 10 hours, and it is a very rare occasion that I hit 12 hours(I took a jackpot late and had to stick around for payment). Once I feel that I am not at my best I leave, down 3 racks, up 3 or somewhere in between.

[phish]

Yeah, I quit when I'm broke.

[JKDStudent]

In order of importance:
1) When the game is no longer good.
2) When you are no longer able to play your best game.

If the game tightens up significantly, the donators/fish leave, and it's no longer profitable, get up.

If you are hungry, tired, tilting, etc., get up. You are no longer playing your A-game. Fix the problem, then come back. There will always be games.

I say that the game is more important than yourself because often, you will be in a game so juicy that it's worth going a little while longer without food, or putting off bed for another hour. Just try not to take it too far. If your play suffers too much, it won't matter how juicy the game is, as you won't be able to benefit from it.

I know that when I started playing, I hated getting up from the table. I once sat at the same table (live) for 22 hours. Because I didn't want to get up. I wasn't falling asleep at the table, but the game wasn't particularly special either. But I was relatively new to taking playing seriously, and I had not yet gained the insight of, "There will always be another game." The next phase was, "Ok, I'm hungry, I'll get up and go. Oh, but I'm down... well, let me try to get back to even." Now, it's all one big session, and if I'm hungry, I eat.

The abridged version? Stay as long as the game is profitable, and leave when it's not, taking into consideration any variables affecting your own quality of play.

[dcarlc]

I'm down 110 BB's today, don't fell like I'm playing bad. I know I'm getting run down and have had monster hands that turn into loosers. Charge on, or take a nap and fight another day.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

When you no longer think to yourself "Wow, what a table full of donks."

When the game isn't good enough this is obvious. When you are too tired or distracted to play much longer, you'll be frustrated by bad beats and not appreciating the donks, also making it time to leave.

[davet]

Yeah, when I am no longer the best of two players I get up and leave. But I also find a few other things helpful.

When you are in a "tempo," and that tempo is upset by many many conditions, such as the "great players" getting up. These are the ones who think they are good, wear sunny-g's, and are so easy to read because they play strictly by the book.

I also get up when there are two or maniacs at the table, also, when one maniac is within three seats of your left. you are in deep trouble.

If all the passive people start playing aggressively.

For God knows what reason, the pots are all of a sudden SMALL.

I don't know what else aside the obvious. I personally treat poker like a job, I expect to work X hours, and expect Y money, following the above should help keep Y over minumum wage.

[ds914]

[ QUOTE ]

I also get up when there are two or maniacs at the table,

[/ QUOTE ]

why in the world would you leave?

[UATrewqaz]

Book advice:

As long as you are the favorite, keep playing. As long as the odds are in your favor, keep playing.

If a good game turns sour (tight aggressive players move in) then you can quit.

If you feel yourself getting tired or becoming reckless it's also good to quit.

Another rule of thumb I've heard is that if you've won most of the money in play already just leave (a hypothetical would be if everyon had $100 and then after a few hours you had like $500 and everyone else had like $60 left). I don't quite get this one but i've heard it alot.

As for the multiple maniac issue, this is a variance question. If big huge swings bother you playing in a maniac filled game isn't a good idea. But EV speaking the more maniacs the better. In other words your swings will be more wild however the biggest swings should be upwards, assuming you are playing well.

[ajmargarine]

IF you can play anytime you want for how ever long you want
and
IF the current game is not particularly juicy

Quit winners as much as possible. Meaning, quit while you are ahead for the session. Start a new session later, and quit that one while you are ahead. No set limits, no set time frame. Go by feel. Be satisfied with a nice healthy hourly rate. Just quit ahead.

Book advice is nice, poker is one long session, blah blah blah. One of the reasons you want to play long sessions is because you get to know your opponents so much better. But if they are coming and going like they do in online poker, that is irrelevent. Book the wins, cuz they add up.

In-game, hand-detailed decisions are one long session. Make the best long term decisions as the cards lay. As far as money management goes, pad the wallet when you can. Goes a long way for your confidence and your bankroll.

EDIT: added some hyphens.

[ajmargarine]

Above is for online poker only, when you have an unlimited timeframe in which to play in every day. I am a contrarian (for now anyway, cuz it works well for me) when it comes to when to quit.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
IF you can play anytime you want for how ever long you want
and
IF the current game is not particularly juicy

Quit winners as much as possible. Meaning, quit while you are ahead for the session. Start a new session later, and quit that one while you are ahead. No set limits, no set time frame. Go by feel. Be satisfied with a nice healthy hourly rate. Just quit ahead.

Book advice is nice, poker is one long session, blah blah blah. One of the reasons you want to play long sessions is because you get to know your opponents so much better. But if they are coming and going like they do in online poker, that is irrelevent. Book the wins, cuz they add up.

In-game, hand-detailed decisions are one long session. Make the best long term decisions as the cards lay. As far as money management goes, pad the wallet when you can. Goes a long way for your confidence and your bankroll.

EDIT: added some hyphens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so people don't get confused, I'll be blunt.


This is absolutly terrible advice.

OK I feel better.

[KyleM]

When enough fish leave the table that the VPIP drops below 28. Or if the VPIP is about 30, but I have poor position and another table available. this is pretty much my solid rule, regardless of how much I'm winning or losing at the table, unless theres a maniac sitting right next to me making it extremely profitable, then I'll stay for a bit /images/graemlins/grin.gif

edit: this is my rule for Party 3/6

[pryor15]

when you have all the money

[helpmeout]

It depends on a few things.

I'd leave in the following sitautions

- game is no longer good
- game is pretty good but I have been getting lucky and I'm not playing well.
- game is pretty good but lately I have been struggling to finish off sessions and really need to book a decent win.
- game is pretty good but I'm tired or am thinking of other things i could be doing.
- game is very good but I am on tilt.

[JKDStudent]

Hopefully reposting this here isn't a violation of something I'm not aware of. This is probably the only useful FullTilt e-mail I've gotten.

[ QUOTE ]

Should I Stay Or Should I Go?
by Jennifer Harmon

Being a winning player isn't only about playing good cards - it's also about making good decisions. And there is one important decision you face every time you sit down in a cash game: Should I quit, or should I keep playing?

When should you keep playing?

I see so many players playing short hours when they're winning, and long hours when they're losing. It should be the other way around.

When you are winning in the game, at least a few of the other players must be losing. And when your opponents are losing, they often aren't playing their best. But you are.

When you're winning, other players fear you; you have a good table image. And when you have a good table image, you can get away with things that you can't seem to when you're losing. For one thing, you can bluff more. Usually a losing player is scared to get involved with a winning player, so it's easier for you to pick up pots. You can represent more hands than you actually have because your opponents believe you're hitting every flop.

The only time to quit when you're winning is when you are tired, or when you start playing badly.

When should you call it a day?

Many players can't seem to quit when they are losing. You have to remember that there will always be another poker game -- if not tomorrow, then the day after, or the week after. I like to think of poker as one continuous game going on for my whole career. So, if I'm losing more than 30 big bets in the game, I usually quit.

There are a couple of reasons I do this: For one, if I lose a ton of money in one day, I don't feel so hot the next day. That means if I go in to play the next day, I might not be able to play my best game. I might actually have to take a few days off to get my head straight. Another reason is that when I'm losing more than 30 bets, I might not be playing that well. I might think I'm playing my "A" game, but in reality, I'm probably not. You can't be as objective about your play when you're losing. After all, we are not robots; we're just human beings.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IF you can play anytime you want for how ever long you want
and
IF the current game is not particularly juicy

Quit winners as much as possible. Meaning, quit while you are ahead for the session. Start a new session later, and quit that one while you are ahead. No set limits, no set time frame. Go by feel. Be satisfied with a nice healthy hourly rate. Just quit ahead.

Book advice is nice, poker is one long session, blah blah blah. One of the reasons you want to play long sessions is because you get to know your opponents so much better. But if they are coming and going like they do in online poker, that is irrelevent. Book the wins, cuz they add up.

In-game, hand-detailed decisions are one long session. Make the best long term decisions as the cards lay. As far as money management goes, pad the wallet when you can. Goes a long way for your confidence and your bankroll.

EDIT: added some hyphens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so people don't get confused, I'll be blunt.


This is absolutly terrible advice.

OK I feel better.

[/ QUOTE ]

TYVM. Now tell me why. Seriously.

Should have had another IF in there last nite.

IF you can play anytime you want for how ever long you want
and
IF the current game is not particularly juicy
and
IF you are playing online and you are a NLHE player

All the conventional wisdom that is displayed in this thread is pretty much the same advice you would get if you asked this question 25 years ago. This is what the books say to do.

Well, 25 years ago people were playing limit poker in B&M's. And all the advice is great for that kind of poker. But, the online, multitabling, NLHE player is a completely different animal than those folks 25 years ago.

If, like me, you can play anytime you want, for how ever long you want, whenever you want to online, my advice will work...well it does for me anyway. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I am not talking about playing tight for 12 minutes on 3 tables and quitting when you win 2 nice pots putting you up a quick 40 BB's. I am not talking about hit and running. I am talking about leaving when you are up, booking the win, and coming back later and starting again. No set rules, all by feel and instinct.

Poker is less of a grind this way. I think it helps prevent burnout this way. We may both play for 4 hours a day. You sit down and say I am going to start at 7pm and play at least 4 hours, barring anything weird happening. You sit, you play, you win lose whatever.

I say I am going to play and add to my roll. I may play 3 sessions over the day of 45 min, 2 hrs, and 75 min; quitting winners hopefully each time, or quitting when the game goes south. Same four hours, just spread out more.

[ajmargarine]

Oops...just was rereading the thread and noticed the OP was asking about live games. Disregard my posts. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Bjorn]

I think most of the things you should take into account has been mentioned as far as a live public game (i.e. casino) is concerned.

Just wanted to add that if it is a private (say a home game) and it is sufficiently juicy* you should also take into account that you want to be invited back for next time.

So if they (the fishes) dislike people that "take the money and run" try to stay the whole session and so on.

/Bjorn

*) And home games can be particularly juicy simply from the fact that there might be no rake.

If I come to the point where my winnings have tripled my overall number of chips from the beginning, I'm basically done around there. You have to be content with succeeding moderately or deal with losing badly.

[Durs522]

[ QUOTE ]
If I come to the point where my winnings have tripled my overall number of chips from the beginning, I'm basically done around there. You have to be content with succeeding moderately or deal with losing badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This thinking is fundamentally wrong.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

There is no qutting winner or losers. There is only quitting. You don't win or lose a single game.

Your earn = Time X (How good the game is, How good the decisions you're making are).

If you get some fish that end up getting all in preflop with you when you have Aces, it doesn't matter whether he scoops it or you do. This is pure results oriented thinking, it's worth absolutely nothing. If he reloads why would you leave the game? "Protecting your win" is just a psychological weakness that needs to be worked on like anything else. If he leaves and is replaced by a good 2+2'er and the game is only marginal without him, then go ahead and abandon ship. That's a good reason.

Some of the winning multitablers here don't even bother seeing if they won or lost a specific hand. It really doesn't matter. (Well the info on what opponent had is, they should still check that)