This is gonna be interesting... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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moot

07-08-2005, 02:34 AM

My first hand at the table. I typed "this is gonna be fun" after I saw the flop. Was my line pretty standard? Not sure if the flop cap correct. Assuming no one has AA I have a lot of outs even if I'm behind and I figured the combined chance that I was ahead plus my outs if behind was enough to push the equity.

I think slowing down on the turn is pretty standard.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, Hero (poster) 3-bets, 3 folds, SB caps, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (24 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero caps, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (21 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 29 BB

aK13

07-08-2005, 02:38 AM

I like it.

jaxUp

07-08-2005, 04:25 AM

You can fold this river pretty safely here.

Bodhi

07-08-2005, 04:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You can fold this river pretty safely here.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://home.earthlink.net/~bodhibones/images/MoneyBurn.jpg

jaxUp

07-08-2005, 04:43 AM

I seriously think we are good no more than 1% of the time here.

aK13

07-08-2005, 04:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I seriously think we are good no more than 1% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

QJ/AQ/KQ not happening 1 out of 30 times?

jaxUp

07-08-2005, 05:22 AM

not from everybody still involved. I UTG almost certainly has a straight or better. No way I'm dorpping a BB as an overcaller on this river.

pryor15

07-08-2005, 05:31 AM

if...IF...UTG didn't flop the flush, he certainly hit the straight on the turn. (and if he didn't, someone else did)...stick around to see if the board pairs, then fold the river.

moot

07-08-2005, 05:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You can fold this river pretty safely here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won.

I know that the specific hand results don't dictate the rightness or wrongness of a call, but I think you guys are missing the point. You talk about everyone sticking around like it's a bad thing, but it's not. Yeah, UTGs turn bet doesn't look good, but the way the other 2 are playing this hand it means we have them completely destoryed. Because if they had either flush or straight they'd likely be raising.

So the thing is, everyone sticking around doesn't matter much, in fact it pads the pot. It's just a matter of the UTG. We obviously call the turn with the boat outs, and since we didn't raise the turn there's actually a fairly wide range of hands the UTG could be betting on the river since we didn't define our hand as a powerhouse on the turn. So what this all amounts to is letting one player take a very cheap stab at a huge multiway pot.

I don't think a river fold is terrible here, and it might actually be the right play, but I think you guys are failing to look at the hand as a whole. "Oh God look, everyone's calling that's scary so I have to fold." And that's just dumb. Please don't list the multiway action as a reason to fold, because it's not.

Additionally, you have to look at the aggressor. The SB has defined himself as the hand aggressor (along with me). But when he checks the turn it opens up the UTG to take over the hand. This doesn't mean UTG has the straight (or flush), it only means the SB does not. If the SB had bet the turn and then the UTG had raised, that could be grounds to fold to river unimproved. But the turn action is actually nothing like that.

Results in white below: 
SB has 6d Kd (one pair, kings).
UTG has Ah 3d (one pair, aces).
UTG+1 has Ad Qs (two pair, aces and queens).
Hero has Kh Ks (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 29 BB.

jaxUp

07-08-2005, 05:46 AM

I found the following post very interesting and relevant here. Be sure to read GoT's linked thread in its entireity. It's great. related post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2771228&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

Dave G.

07-08-2005, 05:51 AM

Good post. An incorrect call here isn't a major error (if it is one), but an incorrect fold is a blunder.

From SSH: "Even if you are almost sure that you are beaten, when the pot is large on the river, do not fold decent hands for one bet" (p 202). A set of Kings seems pretty decent to me. Thanks, Ed.

moot

07-08-2005, 05:55 AM

You'll also notice that not one person had a club. I found that to be fairly assuming.

Dave G.

07-08-2005, 06:01 AM

Those are interesting threads, but the hands aren't really that comparable. In those threads, the guy has one pair. Sure it's an overpair... but it's just one pair. Lots can beat one pair, and I also imagine the 3/6 game is not as loose as the micros. Overcalls should be respected more.

Here we have second set, a hand vastly more powerful than one pair. The pot is also much bigger and the players are much looser.

I don't really see the comparison as a valid one.

oreogod

07-08-2005, 06:13 AM

That river is far to big to fold. Im not convinced you are beat.

Look at it this way...if u call down...ur spending 2bbs to win 25-27bbs depending who calls/fold. 25:2 at the least. Thats not to shabby. Of course it sucks if they have a T...but look at the action, UTGs bet doesnt really scream str8 or flush. Many many ppl will try to CR this, especially since the flop was capped.