"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later"

[citanul]

I think that we need an official sounding off thread on this subject. I see this advice posted often. I believe it to be horrible. I think that others should believe it to be horrible. Moreover, I believe that people who throw this advice around do so at spots where it's totally silly to consider the universe in such a way.

I have a lot to say on this subject, but I wanted to start by opening up the floor to anyone who wants to say anything about this.

A few points to start:

a) in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention
b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.
c) goes with (b) no matter how nutty they think you are, there are limits to how far down their calling ranges go (different from (b) in that (b) states that there are limits as to how far it *should* go down, not how far it does go down)
d) passing up +EV spots is bad.
e) image is worth a lot less than people think

(e) is really the crux of the other 4 points.

citanul

[lastchance]

It's less about image and more about not pissing your opponents and making them think that you're bullying them. Obviously, this advice sucks at the higher levels, but at the $11's, it's really nice to try to keep your opponent's calling ranges sane.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
It's less about image and more about not pissing your opponents and making them think that you're bullying them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word. Up.

[adanthar]

In the set of 4 I'm playing, I've pushed 700 on the button with 75/150 blinds and gotten called by A2o in the SB, and pushed 600 on the button with 50/100 blinds and gotten called by K3s in the SB. Different people, of course.

So yeah, after this plus July 4'th, FE is quickly vanishing.

[runner4life7]

AMEN. Just wanted to thank you because I've always thought that image was overrated and its nice to hear it from a respected poster.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
In the set of 4 I'm playing, I've pushed 700 on the button with 75/150 blinds and gotten called by A2o in the SB, and pushed 600 on the button with 50/100 blinds and gotten called by K3s in the SB. Different people, of course.

So yeah, after this plus July 4'th, FE is quickly vanishing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it odd when the 100s and 200s are getting to be like the old school 10s, where it was all about just getting all in with the best hand and waiting for the long run to kick in?

citanul

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or more likely you are wrong, by icm, to push into them (assuming they are poor players) in the late game because you misjudge their calling range and even more importantly forget that bad players sometimes just had enough of you pushing and will call with Q9.

I think related to this subject is showing what hands you have. I sometimes show donks that is sitting to my immediate left (that sees 50% of flops) AK two times in a row just because I don't want them to call next time I push. Of course any thinking player at the table know I am only showing my good hands. I don't care. They already know what I am doing anyway. I only care about the donk thinking I am lucky and be more likely to fold to my next push.

The success of such a strategy is of course debatable. Even poor players have a brain and are able to figure out obvious patterns. But I think as long as I play the 22s it doesn't hurt me at least, and possibly helping me.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
AMEN. Just wanted to thank you because I've always thought that image was overrated and its nice to hear it from a respected poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone just informed me that Eastbay made a very similar post while I was away, and it got no notice. =( sad times when Eastbay posts to no avail.

I'm really serious about this one. I think that this topic is very important, and that yes, it's even important at the 11s and such. The people who are prone to make the silly adjustments to their calling ranges are just about as likely to do it just the first time you push as they are the 6th time you push. The ones who start to call with JTs because "I knew you had crap," well, you weren't going to dissuade them by folding ONE EXTRA TIME. I argue that it is rare that the chips you get in additional theoretical folding equity by improving your image by one fold is very rarely worth giving up one reasonably +cEV spot earlier in a tournament.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or more likely you are wrong, by icm, to push into them (assuming they are poor players) in the late game because you misjudge their calling range and even more importantly forget that bad players sometimes just had enough of you pushing and will call with Q9.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, that too.

citanul

part of my point, as i think i allude to in another post, is that these bad players who get sick that fast of you pushing get fast pretty fast anyway, and one push isn't going to be the difference maker. so throwing away a push that is significantly +cEV just isn't good.

your post goes to the larger issue of knowing what type of idiot your idiot opponents being important to results in every way. that is a very very good point.

[Voltron87]

Hi, my name is Voltron and I've been SNG free for (I dunno, a while).

6 max NL and live NL games are so sweet.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, my name is Voltron and I've been SNG free for (I dunno, a while).

6 max NL and live NL games are so sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i left for a freaking month and they went ahead and a) added a freaking level right in the middle of the tournament b) did something screwy to interaccount xfers as far as i've been told?

maybe i should take up crocheting or something. or croquet?

citanul

[runner4life7]

Then I will give eastbay his due props as well. Dont want him to feel left out.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

i left for a freaking month and they went ahead and a) added a freaking level right in the middle of the tournament

[/ QUOTE ]

I love the new level. I always felt the jump from 50/100 to 100/200 was a nasty one since it forced you to do stupid things at the end of level 4.

My results have been great since the new level was introduced. Of course I might just be on a lucky 700 SnG run also. Probably a bit of both.

[runner4life7]

I'm going to agree. At first i was very pesimistic about it thinking it would take longer, involve more "thinking" but it has gone well lately in the short run lets hope it continues that way.

[Voltron87]

maybe lawn tennis.


ive also been playing many many more mtts. i now think learning to play deep stacked NL is more profitable and will offer more opportunities to advance than SNGs. plus i think theyre much more interesting.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe lawn tennis.

ive also been playing many many more mtts. i now think learning to play deep stacked NL is more profitable and will offer more opportunities to advance than SNGs. plus i think theyre much more interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they are more fun to play. But they are time consuming and when you run bad it really leaves a nasty dent in your BR.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i left for a freaking month and they went ahead and a) added a freaking level right in the middle of the tournament

[/ QUOTE ]

I love the new level. I always felt the jump from 50/100 to 100/200 was a nasty one since it forced you to do stupid things at the end of level 4.

My results have been great since the new level was introduced. Of course I might just be on a lucky 700 SnG run also. Probably a bit of both.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm fairly indifferent to the change in structure, i mean, if you know how to play these things well, you know how to play them well. i'm a little sad that i have to adjust, since adjusting takes like, effort, and i liked the way things were before /images/graemlins/smile.gif

today i sadly played 20 sngs, and cashed 10 of them. all 3rds makes citanul an unhappy man. oh well, mostly was just getting back into the swing of things today. tomorrow, pwning limpers 101.

citanul

[Voltron87]

I feel like I'm playing ten times better poker playing ring games than when I was playing SNGs. I kind of got stuck in this rut 8 tabling 33s, never moving up, making some decent money but not developing. higher limit SNGs just looked boring, I took a shot or two at 55s and 109s but I didn't like it. one big pushfest, and they didnt look like they were as profitable to moving up and playing 5 10 NL.

I also got really weak tight early in SNGs and generally did not play much postflop poker, I am a quite good postflop player but ended up not using those skills. I've been playing a lot of MTTs, so a lot of the stuff I've learned in SNGs comes in handy late.

[DonButtons]

I played a set of 4 20s for my friend, and was pwning the bubble and got up to 4000 in one of them b/c of a tiny short stack.

UTG- 100 CHIPS
BUTTON-900
SB(ME)-4000
BB-3000
blinds are 200/400-250/500 i cant remember
I push on sb and BB auto calls with A3o
He says I called b/c you were pushing every hand, lol...

So I can see where some of the advice at the higher buyins is just not applicable to the smaller buyin sngs. But the adjustments are very easy to make.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
a) in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true, in the sense that they do not pay attention to the important things, and even if they do, they don't know what to do with the information. However, many opponents, especially at lower buy-ins (but also at higher ones) can get irritated if you are playing very aggressively against them, and particularly players who don't multi-table, and all their attention is on one game. Again, this by itself is not a problem, unless in some specific cases where a bad player is able to make a bad bubble call against you when you really don't want it. and that's where b) comes into picture:

[ QUOTE ]
b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not entirely correct. Many times, a bad bubble call (according to ICM, for instance) can really hurt you and the caller, but help the two other players. There are many cases you simply don't want your opponent to call, even if his call will be really bad. You really prefer him to fold. In most cases you simply gain more by winning the blinds uncontested. And so, if you do play very aggressively early on in a game against a player that is getting pissed at you, you are risking him making one bad call with J8 or whatever when you push with T7. If there was a chance he would fold this particular hand had you been a bit less aggressive against him earlier, when blinds were smaller (or much smaller), you could gain something by doing so. It doesn't mean that you are not correct to push any 2 against him on the later hand, but you still prefer him to fold. And the more he folds, the more you gain (unless you have a real hand, which is rare of course).



[ QUOTE ]
c) goes with (b) no matter how nutty they think you are, there are limits to how far down their calling ranges go (different from (b) in that (b) states that there are limits as to how far it *should* go down, not how far it does go down)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but again, there's some equilibrium you want to keep all along the game. And you want your opponents to get tighter, as the blinds get higher. Sometimes it really doesn't matter what you did earlier during the game. But if there's a chance that something you do (or don't do) earlier will get your opponent/s to fold more hands and to narrow their calling range at the critical points, you should try and do it (if the price is not too high, of course).

[ QUOTE ]
d) passing up +EV spots is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely true, but there's another tourney catch phraze about passing a +EV spot if you'll get a better one later on. Here we're not simply talking about surviving the first spot, but merely about keeping your image a bit tighter as a preperation for later rounds. Again, it is more relevant at lower buy-ins.

[ QUOTE ]
e) image is worth a lot less than people think

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what people think, but image has a role. People put other players on hands (even if they don't know that their actually doing it. Even if they only say: "he's a maniac and a thief, I don't care, I call with THIS!!", or "mmmm, he didn't play any hand, OK... first time in my life I fold QJ suited", they are still putting people on hands), people fold some hands against X that they would call with against Y, even very bad players do so. That is image.

Anyway, it's a good topic to discuss.

[The Yugoslavian]

citanul,

Thank you for posting on this topic. I remember Eastbay's thread but due to lack of discussion perhaps I didn't respond.

I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree with your thoughts on this topic.

I unfortunately don't have time to attempt to concisely lay out my thoughts, /images/graemlins/frown.gif. Even worse, I'm not sure I can put them into the proper logical structure to be read side by side with your well structured post.

The crux of what I'd say would be:

Psychologically, at some point your opponents *do* adjust to you. Not only do they adjust, but when they adjust they over-adjust killing some or all of your ROI boosting 'standard' plays (they also *really* kill their ROI at the same time in these situations...but it doesn't matter one bit). I think there are ways to prolong these crucial points by 'keeping your image tight' early on in marginal situations.

Interestingly enough, this psychological phenomenon also allows one to make strange, very exploitable, seemingly chip spewing plays that will be long term winners if made at *just* the right time. Gigabet and Lorinda I'd imagine understand what I'm trying to say here (and actually are able to implement such an idea profitably)....I'm not sure who else will.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

My quickly summarized opinion on the matter....your image is irrelevant early in the tournament and you should pay almost no attention to it.

Later on when it becomes 2-5 handed, your image does play a part and some plays in which the EV difference is close could swing the other way for image purposes or because of your image.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
My quickly summarized opinion on the matter....your image is irrelevant early in the tournament and you should pay almost no attention to it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I don't know about this. I play in many tournaments where at level 3 or 4 someone says to me, "Are you EVER going to play a hand?" By making a strong impression on one particular player, I can sometimes get him to advertise on my behalf. Suddenly, he draws everyone's attention to the fact that I've been playing tight -- and the other players have no reason to distrust his claim.
But even if no one says anything, players DO notice that you've been folding a lot, and give your pushes some more credit.

[Freudian]

I think you are right. The common forum wisdom is that poor players don't notice things and that people don't notice things early.

This conversation (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2757623&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) is from a 5+1 limit HE experiment where I only played premium hands, seeing if I could basically fold my way into the money. Both players that are chatting are total fish. They picked up on my tightness.

[curtains]

Honestly no one in any sit and go ive ever played has made a comment about how tight I was playing in over 2000 tournaments, with plenty of them being at lower buyins.

[Freudian]

I was of course disgustingly tight since I decided to only play AA-JJ, AK-AQs or something. So it was level 7 and I played once outside the blinds.

What is more common is that some idiot with Pokerprophecy is starting to talk about my winrate and that people should watch out for me because I am a pro. That modifies the behaviour of even the fish at the table. I don't mind though since I get to steal from players I would hesitate pushing into.

[sully4321]

my style of play is usually tight-aggressive. however, i do bluff alot and try to buy the pot when possible / worth the risk. to compensate for this loose part of ym game, i developed a habit of always showing my hand when it's strong if i take down a pot without a showdown -- this establishes my tight, solid image which allows me to bluff and buy pots throughout the game.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

Honestly no one in any sit and go ive ever played has made a comment about how tight I was playing in over 2000 tournaments, with plenty of them being at lower buyins.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet it's because you're not as tight as I am. I do things like fold AJo in MP when it's folded to me.

[Apathy]

I haven't read through this thread yet but good OP citanul. The most ridiculous thing I hear a lot is folding the SB in level 1 for 5 more chips "for image purposes" with like 5 limpers. That is insane. With any two. Period.

[wuwei]

Happy birthday, tighty /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MSUcougar]

hmmm well I made <this post> (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2785420 &Forum=All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Mai n=2785420&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=26069&dat erange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post2785420) 2 days ago and didnt get near the discussion I was hoping for... guess my name's not well known enough /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm well I made <this post> (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2785420 &Forum=All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Mai n=2785420&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=26069&dat erange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post2785420) less than a week ago and didnt get near the discussion I was hoping for... guess my name's not well known enough /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

then quit feeling sorry for yourself, and get yourself recognized /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Honestly no one in any sit and go ive ever played has made a comment about how tight I was playing in over 2000 tournaments, with plenty of them being at lower buyins.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet Im a lot tighter than you think!!
I bet it's because you're not as tight as I am. I do things like fold AJo in MP when it's folded to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Augie]

I've been Pushing away and enjoying it.

One thing I've noticed since the beginning of the summer, IMHO, is that players are worse, in general. I play groups of 4 to 6 SNGs, and almost invariably, when I start the pushfest, I will see people call with ridiculous hands in at least 1 or 2 of them.

Today, I witnessed all kind of crazy calls, especially on the bubble and headsup. Q2o, 87o, J8s, etc. - in one SNG on Stars, I get it heads up, and push with KTs the 1st hand (about equal stacks), and get called by 76s.

I think there are many players out there making F*** You calls. They don't have the odds, they don't have a reason, they just Call and in a weird, sort of sign language way, are saying, F*** You.

I like it.

Augie

[jon462]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Honestly no one in any sit and go ive ever played has made a comment about how tight I was playing in over 2000 tournaments, with plenty of them being at lower buyins.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet it's because you're not as tight as I am. I do things like fold AJo in MP when it's folded to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats tight? I thought that was standard, at least levels 1-4... I fold AJo on the cutoff frequently and dont think ive had someone comment on my tightness more than once or twice.

[wdcbooks]

I am willing to step up and bruise my ego to support citanul on this point. I am two different people when it comes to playing Sit and Gos. Most of the time I really want a win so I turn off the TV, fire up three tables and concentrate. When I am playing in that mode I can pick out some tendencies of most of the players at the table and will notice when people step out of line.

On occasion though I play the $10s and $20s while reading a book, looking at porn and watching Law and Order. At those times I think I am fairly representative of the majority of the low level Sit and Go competition. I have a small but consistent ROI (being as I am not a complete moron). What I don't have is any sense of the other players at the table.

Any table image that develops is only at the extremes. If you played no hands, or every hand I would notice. Other than that I am only interested in how I am going to play my hand. I realize this is terrible poker, but I find the mechanical click and fold relaxing. Passing up a +cEV play because a guy like me (when I am playing in that mode) might give you more respect is pointless.

[tminus]

[ QUOTE ]
\in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention

[/ QUOTE ]

My opponents at the 11's dont, im tight as hell showing only premium hands before level 4 and immeditely switch gears on bubble, anyone watching me would never call with K8o or A4 but it happens more often than not

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Honestly no one in any sit and go ive ever played has made a comment about how tight I was playing in over 2000 tournaments, with plenty of them being at lower buyins.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet it's because you're not as tight as I am. I do things like fold AJo in MP when it's folded to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this advisable at the 33 level? i posted this AJ hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2810291&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) earlier and i was pretty skeptical of the people telling me to fold pre-flop.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Honestly no one in any sit and go ive ever played has made a comment about how tight I was playing in over 2000 tournaments, with plenty of them being at lower buyins.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet it's because you're not as tight as I am. I do things like fold AJo in MP when it's folded to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this advisable at the 33 level? i posted this AJ hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2810291&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) earlier and i was pretty skeptical of the people telling me to fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're going to get mixed reviews of hand selection for preflop early in the game.

right before i took my break i and adanthar and a couple others were heavilly pushing that people who have post flop skills should be playing more hands, particularly against bad opponents, and in good situations. also that people who lack post flop skills should work on them so they can do the same. the games are beatable using an incredibly tight strategy, but they are possibly *more* beatable if you can add more hands to your mix.

the folding AJo thing is the "book" play, i believe.

citanul

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
\in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention

[/ QUOTE ]

My opponents at the 11's dont, im tight as hell showing only premium hands before level 4 and immeditely switch gears on bubble, anyone watching me would never call with K8o or A4 but it happens more often than not

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I don't play tight early for my image, I play tight early to save chips and stay out of trouble. I think most people don't pay attention unless your are extremely loose/tight. When you get down to 5 people it is much easier to pick up on opponents tightness and I think everyone does to some degree. The opponents that occassionally point out my tightness to the table are generally stronger, more observant players, that have also established some sort of comeraderie w/ another player at the table, IMO.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]

e) image is worth a lot less than people think

(e) is really the crux of the other 4 points.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

As a general rule, this is correct. In low limit games, this is especially true in the early levels. There's not much you can do here to get noticed except act like a maniac or win a huge pot. Even the latter will be soon forgotten if you do nothing else of note.

I think that the exceptions start kicking in when the table gets down to about 5 players. If you chart your play in 2 dimensions, where you are on the tight-loose spectrum will not be noticed by most players. On the passive-aggressive line, passive play will generally not be noticed. The exception is when you appear to let someone steal your blind 2-3 times in 4-5 hands. This will brand you as someone who can be bullied.

What will get you noticed and build an image is playing more aggressively than the table norm once down to about 5 players. Every table has its own general level of aggressiveness. Playing above that level will be noticed.

Also, at all but the most aggressive tables, most players assume certain "rights", or stake out turf, if you will. If I am in the BB in a 5-handed game and everyone else folds or limps preflop and then the SB raises, the SB has violated my "rights" as the BB to see the flop for free. He gets noticed. He gets an image, particularly if he does it more than once.

If I put in a "normal" raise preflop, I expect everyone to fold or call, and to check to the raiser on the flop. If you come back over the top of me, you are on my turf, and I resent it.

In short, tight or loose or passive play will not be noticed enough by most opponents in a low level game to matter, will not be noticed enough to give you an image that will change the way others play. "Normal" aggressive play will not be noticed, especially at the early levels. "Overly" aggressive play, especially when the table starts to get short, will be noticed, and will build you an image. Whether or not it will affect the play of opponents depends on their playing skills and experience.

Even shorter, you are not going to have an image in the eyes of most low level players unless and until you actively and aggressively build one. In the words of the OP subject, the only thing that seriously affects your ability to steal late is when you start doing a lot of stealing late.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
right before i took my break i and adanthar and a couple others were heavilly pushing that people who have post flop skills should be playing more hands, particularly against bad opponents, and in good situations. also that people who lack post flop skills should work on them so they can do the same. the games are beatable using an incredibly tight strategy, but they are possibly *more* beatable if you can add more hands to your mix.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think many players get confused that tight early is optimal when I don't think that's the case at all. Tight early is the easiest strategy to implement without sacrificing so much equity as to restrict your profitability too much. I agree that's how players should start off and maybe it might allow you to multitable more. But it's clearly not optimal.

You should be maximimizing your average equity at every stage of the tournament. If you are averaging more equity than me after level 1, its clear that you're going to have a higher winner percentage at every subsequent level. And this applies to all levels.

The exception to this rule is what the original topic of the thread is: giving up these oppurtunities earlier for more profitable ones later. In practice, I agree these moves are almost always just giving up overall equity.

And so eastbay doesn't go bananas: equity = ICM equity here.

[poindexter]

e) image is worth a lot less than people think

Image is important to my game especially when it comes down to the bubble. Stealing with no resistance is VERY important late in a sng. T.J. Coutier likes to show his good hands when someone folds to him. Why? He knows that if his raises never get called then he will win the tournament with out resistance. If im on the bubble facing elimination, I will take a blind steal over a showdown every time late in a sng unless I hold AA.


a) in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention

This is true in the early stages, however I disagree with this statement in the late stages. The type of player I fear most in the late rounds of a sng is the tight carefull player. I never fear a hyper aggressive maniac with a big stack I just wait for the right situation to challenge him. You would have to be retarted not to be able to spot a significantly tight or loose player after the 4th round. There are some retarted players on party but not as many at the 200 level where I play.

[mlagoo]

posts like this make me wish i had a roll for the $215s

[citanul]

it appears that people are misconstruing my intended meaning:

image is a lot less important than you think: yes, it would be GREAT if it were possible to just make them think whatever you want them to, but it's not. going out of your way and passing up good spots in order to possibly change the way one or two opponents might think about you, if they are thinking, is absurd. that's sort of the rub i was looking for.

in the late stages of course you are looking to avoid some players less than others. you say, for instance, that you are looking to be scared of the patient plodding players who are suddenly aggressive. yeah, so is everyone else. but, to make them think of you as tight and patient, for real, at the bubble time, chances are pretty good that you're actually going to have played tight and patiently 4 and 5 handed for a while. it is unlikely that they are going to take their thoughts of you (if they existed) from 10 handed to 4 handed. meanwhile, being overly patient is massively unprofitable 4 and 5 handed.

the overall point is that passing up ONE spot in the early mid parts of the tournament in order to get yourself a little extra folding equity is just patently ridiculous, because when it comes down to the bubble time, you're oging to be negating any effects of "ooh, he's tight" they have in their minds very quickly, since you'll be correctly pushing often.

citanul

[ QUOTE ]
e) image is worth a lot less than people think

Image is important to my game especially when it comes down to the bubble. Stealing with no resistance is VERY important late in a sng. T.J. Coutier likes to show his good hands when someone folds to him. Why? He knows that if his raises never get called then he will win the tournament with out resistance. If im on the bubble facing elimination, I will take a blind steal over a showdown every time late in a sng unless I hold AA.


a) in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention

This is true in the early stages, however I disagree with this statement in the late stages. The type of player I fear most in the late rounds of a sng is the tight carefull player. I never fear a hyper aggressive maniac with a big stack I just wait for the right situation to challenge him. You would have to be retarted not to be able to spot a significantly tight or loose player after the 4th round. There are some retarted players on party but not as many at the 200 level where I play.

[/ QUOTE ]

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
posts like this make me wish i had a roll for the $215s

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

citanul

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
posts like this make me wish i had a roll for the $215s

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

mostly because he is a) getting advice from the cloutier book -- enh, and b) talks about how he doesnt fear a hyper aggressive player late in an SNG, but rather fears a tight player. I think this is completely backwards. Tight players, late in tournaments, are one of the main reasons I make money in SNGs.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
posts like this make me wish i had a roll for the $215s

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

mostly because he is a) getting advice from the cloutier book -- enh, and b) talks about how he doesnt fear a hyper aggressive player late in an SNG, but rather fears a tight player. I think this is completely backwards. Tight players, late in tournaments, are one of the main reasons I make money in SNGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

does that poster play the 200s or something? otherwise i'm missing the connection.

the tight players are the ones you fear WHEN THEY COME TO LIFE is the statment i think he was making, i hope.

citanul

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
it appears that people are misconstruing my intended meaning:

image is a lot less important than you think

the overall point is that passing up ONE spot in the early mid parts of the tournament in order to get yourself a little extra folding equity is just patently ridiculous


[/ QUOTE ]

Completely, 100% agree.


ps. Do people really fold AJ in the CO when folded to? I thought I was tight, but I'd never do that at any stage of a SnG.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
There are some retarted players on party but not as many at the 200 level where I play.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess I just interpreted it differently (with respect to the tight player comment).


I was full of it anyway. I'm fairly sure the Raptors of the world would still have their way with me at this point. Plus I cash out about once every two weeks, so I don't anticipate my roll getting there anytime soon.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are some retarted players on party but not as many at the 200 level where I play.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess I just interpreted it differently (with respect to the tight player comment).


I was full of it anyway. I'm fairly sure the Raptors of the world would still have their way with me at this point. Plus I cash out about once every two weeks, so I don't anticipate my roll getting there anytime soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

doh, sorry about that, i didn't notice that in poindexter's post.

some other points:

a) while cashing out is good, there's something to be said for cashing out in a fashion that leaves room to move up
b) raptor sucks. don't let yourself get fooled by the 12 tables at once. he's a fool.

not that i want to distract from the original content of the tread. oh man, now i hate myself.

citanul

[EnderFFX]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that we need an official sounding off thread on this subject. I see this advice posted often. I believe it to be horrible. I think that others should believe it to be horrible. Moreover, I believe that people who throw this advice around do so at spots where it's totally silly to consider the universe in such a way.

I have a lot to say on this subject, but I wanted to start by opening up the floor to anyone who wants to say anything about this.

A few points to start:

a) in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention
b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.
c) goes with (b) no matter how nutty they think you are, there are limits to how far down their calling ranges go (different from (b) in that (b) states that there are limits as to how far it *should* go down, not how far it does go down)
d) passing up +EV spots is bad.
e) image is worth a lot less than people think

(e) is really the crux of the other 4 points.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a beginning SnG player playing the $10 and $20 and doing ok at them. I have been following the basic advise of:

1) In the first 2 rounds raising:
AA, KK, QQ, AK
calling unraised with:
pocketpairs and once in a while hands like AXs.

2) Following the 10 BB rule near the mid and late game.

I am still earning the nuances. Are you saying I should loosen up and play a few more hands or are you just putting to rest a misconception?

[citanul]

loosening up a little bit probably wouldn't hurt you, unless your post flop skills are bad. you probably can make a profit playing exactly the way you are now, but as you move up, adding some other abilities beyond "i'm tight" will be important.

in general, the advice i'm crticizing is given about spots where stealing the blinds would be reasonable, but some deem it unnecessary, for various reasons, including "image."

my overall goal is to hopefully make people think more about image, and what they sacrifice to get it, or to more accurately, make them think about what they sacrifice in hopes of getting it, in spots where it is unlikely to have any effect at all.

citanul

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.
c) goes with (b) no matter how nutty they think you are, there are limits to how far down their calling ranges go (different from (b) in that (b) states that there are limits as to how far it *should* go down, not how far it does go down)


[/ QUOTE ]
While it's true that opponents' calling ranges decrease as they notice a particular player pushing more hands, the additional range of hands with which they actually call does not overlap the range of hands with which they should call, even if those ranges include the same number of hands. For example, I see spite calls with 55- and low suited connectors. It's leaves me speachless to see a player call my push for all his stack 5-handed when he has 44 and I have 96o. On one occasion, my opponent won the hand, eliminated me, and then typed something like "I knew I could catch you bluffing eventually." Most players have a poor intuitive understanding of ICM theory and how it relates to their necessary Gap (as in Gap Concept) when BB/average stack gets high.

It's not simply a matter of "up" or "down" as most players don't know how to properly value calling hands against standard pushing ranges as compared to "any two." Notice how far the lower PP's drop against any two cards. Most people don't. It's a matter of being able to find a better spot later. Sure 22 is about 50% against any two and about 40% against a more refined pushing range, but if you think your opponent is pushing any two, you're more likely to pick up a better hand on the next orbit when hold 22 against a radom pusher than against a more careful one.

eastbay's HU hand rankings (http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/poker/hand-rankings.html)

SlimP

[poindexter]

"going out of your way and passing up good spots in order to possibly change the way one or two opponents might think about you"

I rarely go out of my way to pass up these +ev opportunities. Playing these situations aggressively is just as important for your table image as playing tight and folding allot. As long as my read tells me I am ahead I will call or raise. I once put my tounament on the line to call another 2+2ers all in raise with K-5o because I was sure he was raising any 2. sure enough he had a 8xo type hand. He won the hand but from that play on he will never confuse my tight game with a weak game. Level 1-3 is the only exception where I am a little less aggressive with these spots because I know I can still find them after level 4. For example lets say its level 1 and I hold AK facing an all in bet. my read says I am most likely a coin flip but there is only a slight chance he may be holding a dominated A. I will easily fold here. My reads are good enough that I can pass on probable coin flips and take them later when the correlation is higher for me to finish itm.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
"going out of your way and passing up good spots in order to possibly change the way one or two opponents might think about you"

I rarely go out of my way to pass up these +ev opportunities. Playing these situations aggressively is just as important for your table image as playing tight and folding allot. As long as my read tells me I am ahead I will call or raise. I once put my tounament on the line to call another 2+2ers all in raise with K-5o because I was sure he was raising any 2. sure enough he had a 8xo type hand. He won the hand but from that play on he will never confuse my tight game with a weak game. Level 1-3 is the only exception where I am a little less aggressive with these spots because I know I can still find them after level 4. For example lets say its level 1 and I hold AK facing an all in bet. my read says I am most likely a coin flip but there is only a slight chance he may be holding a dominated A. I will easily fold here. My reads are good enough that I can pass on probable coin flips and take them later when the correlation is higher for me to finish itm.

[/ QUOTE ]

egad.

a few points i guess:

a) no one was talking about you in particular.
b) most of these spots are spots that get responses of "fold to preserve tight image" are preflop blind steal spots, so all the reading in the world isn't going to help you know what the blinds have before they act
c) "as long as my read tells me i am ahead i will call or raise" is just plain stupid. it shows a clear lack of tournament theory understanding, leading to
d) "once put my tournament on the line to call..." yeah, he's never going to confuse you for a good player again. just because you made a call that made his play -ev does not mean that you were personally taking the +ev. you were almost undoubtably giving it to the other players at table, if we're talking any reasonable spot. i don't know why you think that calling off your whole stack with trash is some sort of "anti-weak" but it has nothing to do with it.
e) if you're sure that every game you're going to be able to find spots later in the game that are great, i envy you. me, sometimes i have tournaments where all my reasonable hands to play are in the early stages of the game, and my late game is dominated by me pushing trash by necessity.
f) oh my god, you're for real? you fold AK facing a preflop all in in level 1? i bow to your superior poker prowess. seriously. i'm sure you're WAY ahead SO often at the 200s.
g) i think you have some issues understanding how bad passing up significant edges is early in the game. though that isn't directly stated in your post.

citanul

[poindexter]

Hi Mlagoo,
I learned proper sng strategy by beating them not through any T.J book. There is no book I am aware of that will teach you how to beat the stt's. I went from the 10's to the 215s in a short 3 months time span. To put my strategy in a nutshell it involves exploiting mistakes. The mistakes are made by both fish and 2+2ers who subscribe to your over aggressive (push too much my image doesnt mean anything because gigabet raises Q3o) doctrine.

I doubt I will make any friends but the advice here is often times bad. I realize I play differently then 99% of the players here so I am not surprised at your general tone. I also believe everyone is limiting their earning potential by playing 2+2 stt style poker. If you think I am full of Sh#T then look up my stats on poker prophecy and find anyone and I mean anyone with a better itm in the 100's and 200's.
Good luck, Fisheyplayer

[lastchance]

Variance matters. And I think 2+2 poker bubble and push/fold STT play is better than anyone in the world.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Mlagoo,
I learned proper sng strategy by beating them not through any T.J book. There is no book I am aware of that will teach you how to beat the stt's. I went from the 10's to the 215s in a short 3 months time span. To put my strategy in a nutshell it involves exploiting mistakes. The mistakes are made by both fish and 2+2ers who subscribe to your over aggressive (push too much my image doesnt mean anything because gigabet raises Q3o) doctrine.

I doubt I will make any friends but the advice here is often times bad. I realize I play differently then 99% of the players here so I am not surprised at your general tone. I also believe everyone is limiting their earning potential by playing 2+2 stt style poker. If you think I am full of Sh#T then look up my stats on poker prophecy and find anyone and I mean anyone with a better itm in the 100's and 200's.
Good luck, Fisheyplayer

[/ QUOTE ]

oh ok

if poker prophecy says so

i must have missed when they become known for anything other than their glaring inaccuracies.

that's awesome that you fold AK preflop sometimes. i can't even imagine the kind of raw poker talent it takes to make a BOLD laydown like that.



....

[dethgrind]

[ QUOTE ]
My quickly summarized opinion on the matter....your image is irrelevant early in the tournament and you should pay almost no attention to it.

Later on when it becomes 2-5 handed, your image does play a part and some plays in which the EV difference is close could swing the other way for image purposes or because of your image.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great stuff.

Don't forget how hugely sucky it is to get spite called, or just called at all late in the game. So often, you desperately need those blind steals. When Adanthar pushes 700 on the button with 75/150 blinds and gets called by A2o in the SB it can cost him BIG TIME in icmEV.

I claim that if you make a couple folds early that could have been played for a marginal profit, and it buys you just one extra blind steal late (like not getting called by A2o), the trade off is probably worth it. Most people are saying that it usually won't buy you an extra blind steal, and I don't disagree with that. But if you're ever in a close situation, and one course of action could buy you a blind steal later, take that course of action.

[poindexter]

Your a moron so I will make this my last post.

"if poker prophecy says so" "i must have missed when they become known for anything other than their glaring inaccuracies."

This is the exact comment I would expect from a player like you. It usually is accompanied by a 20-37 ITM percentage. Care to prove me wrong by giving me your party handle?

“Plus I cash out about once every two weeks, so I don't anticipate my roll getting there anytime soon”

this statement is better translated as: I get a beat down every time I move up so I stay down here where I am comfortable.

Now its time to go support my family playing sng's the wrong way.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Your a moron so I will make this my last post.

"if poker prophecy says so" "i must have missed when they become known for anything other than their glaring inaccuracies."

This is the exact comment I would expect from a player like you. It usually is accompanied by a 20-37 ITM percentage. Care to prove me wrong by giving me your party handle?

“Plus I cash out about once every two weeks, so I don't anticipate my roll getting there anytime soon”

this statement is better translated as: I get a beat down every time I move up so I stay down here where I am comfortable.

Now its time to go support my family playing sng's the wrong way.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah god forbid this poster have a measly 37% ITM percentage.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
d) passing up +EV spots is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard you say this before and really don't quite understand what you mean...

Could you provide a couple of "+EV" spots that you think the 'play tight so you can steal' mentality has people passing on?

[citanul]

the classic one that i'm talking about and have referenced in this thread several times is blind steals in the mid/early levels.

say, 25/50 folded to you in lp with AJo, AJs or AQ or something like that. these hands may be a bit too good for the actual example, but whatever, people are saying "why would you raise here, why not just fold and preserve your image."

mostly people use it as a coverall for playing very weak tight. particularly this thread is meant to address preflop overtightness of a particular variety.

i've said that passing +EV spots is bad in the past and i will continue to say it in the future. in other times and places i have been talking about other types of spots such as the classic "i'm only a coinflip so i fold" mentality, though those people never say they are doing it for image reasons, instead pointing to not wanting to bust out of a tournament early.

citanul

[adanthar]

BTW, I realize not many people will agree with me and I understand if you choose not to do this, but if you have something like AJ in LP in level 3, you raise and everyone folds, there's nothing wrong with showing it.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
the classic one that i'm talking about and have referenced in this thread several times is blind steals in the mid/early levels.

say, 25/50 folded to you in lp with AJo, AJs or AQ or something like that. these hands may be a bit too good for the actual example, but whatever, people are saying "why would you raise here, why not just fold and preserve your image."

mostly people use it as a coverall for playing very weak tight. particularly this thread is meant to address preflop overtightness of a particular variety.

i've said that passing +EV spots is bad in the past and i will continue to say it in the future. in other times and places i have been talking about other types of spots such as the classic "i'm only a coinflip so i fold" mentality, though those people never say they are doing it for image reasons, instead pointing to not wanting to bust out of a tournament early.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

ok thats all good w/ regard to blind steals...what about if the pot has been limped? maybe not at the 215's or even 109's...but at 55's and below people often limp all kinds of crap up front and having a hand like AQo in LP is (long term) a better hand than the average and therefore +EV...so would you advocate raising this?

If you'd like me to give the specific example:

Hero is button w/ average stack at level 2 of a 55 with 9 players. 4 people limp and Hero has a read on none of them.

Hero is deal A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif


I muck here, though I'm quite certain it is +EV to raise...what do ya'll masters think?

[citanul]

i'm dead sure that raising or limping is +ev when compared to folding in this spot.

folding in this spot reduces variance /images/graemlins/smile.gif but a good player should be able to play this hand profitably. i realize that this is counter to a lot of what gets taught/said around here, but whatever.

there is a (growing?) contingency of good players who are becoming vocal about the idea that if you are comfortable playing post flop, and do so well, playing more hands in good spots is preferable to playing fewer hands safely.

playing very safe has been advocated, even by very good respectable players saying to open fold JJ in ep in early levels, and is profitable, quite possibly at every stake currently offered at party, but is exploitable by the best players, and is not optimal, since it is less profitable than another strategy.

citanul

[adanthar]

I don't raise that hand without reads on the limpers (if there are enough regulars in the game they won't put chips in postflop unless they hit sets), but of course you have to at least limp.

I also limp 22, 75s and T7o there and there is absolutely no reason not to limp half the deck in that spot.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]


Yeah god forbid this poster have a measly 37% ITM percentage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if prophecy says 37% then its really probably more like 33%.

[curtains]

I agree that folding is terrible there for 30 chips and AQo on the button in degens example. You have to trust that you have enough ability to play poker that you will be clearly +ev postflop with this hand.

[Newt_Buggs]

my problem isn't :
[ QUOTE ]
25/50 folded to you in lp with AJo, AJs or AQ or something like that. these hands may be a bit too good for the actual example, but whatever, people are saying "why would you raise here, why not just fold and preserve your image.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that this is stupid as well. My problem is that after pushing 3 times in a row from the SB or button any opponent with half a brain will loosen up his calling standards. When I've been playing aggressively taking advantage of every situational +EV push I sometimes find myself folding in spots that *should* be +EV with the blinds even bigger but I'm afraid that I've been bullying so much that I will finally get called by crap. I feel like if I had folded my junk last time in the SB with 100/200 blinds I would now be able to push junk on the 150/300 blinds, but my previous aggression changes this push to -EV.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
My problem is that after pushing 3 times in a row from the SB or button any opponent with half a brain will loosen up his calling standards. When I've been playing aggressively taking advantage of every situational +EV push I sometimes find myself folding in spots that *should* be +EV with the blinds even bigger but I'm afraid that I've been bullying so much that I will finally get called by crap. I feel like if I had folded my junk last time in the SB with 100/200 blinds I would now be able to push junk on the 150/300 blinds, but my previous aggression changes this push to -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, this is different. You're talking about "Fold, to try to get your image to go back to tight" or something like that. Certainly if you think that you feel your opponents' calling standards have opened up too much due to the constant late game pushing, and now you're left with a push which may in fact be -EV for you (probably -EV for whatever the guys are going to call with too) that would normally be a +EV push, folding is a good idea. Hell, even if it's a +EV push that will be +EV against their probable calling standards in the late game, it's sometimes a fold. But again, different sort of concept. I'm fine with this one, which is all about late game tempers and the like.

What the OP was about was early to mid stage of the game spots where people are constantly advocating not playing hands because they would rather be thought of as basically ONE FOLD tighter when it gets to the late game.

citanul

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]

I also limp 22, 75s and T7o there and there is absolutely no reason not to limp half the deck in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but care to elaborate? Are you trying to hit two pair or trips with a hand like T7o because you think that your implied odds are high enough?

[RhitTaker]

I agree wholeheartedly with the opinion that image is virtually meaningless in the SnG arena. If you're playing long sessions against the same opponents, then "set-up" plays are powerful tools. As Sammy Farha has said (roughly), "I'll lose $2000 to you 5 times, and then take $100,000 from you in one hand." Sacrificing a bit of +EV in the current hand can certainly be worth the larger prize down the road.

But in a short online SnG, I wouldn't even consider sacrificing +EV for ANYTHING in the future. The odds of facing a situation later in the tournament that is affected by ONE SINGLE HAND earlier are quite small, in my opinion. As far as SnGs, my strategy is to play the cards, the odds, and the opponents in every hand. I'm not concerned with hands in the future.

[citanul]

welcome to the forum!

citanul

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I also limp 22, 75s and T7o there and there is absolutely no reason not to limp half the deck in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but care to elaborate? Are you trying to hit two pair or trips with a hand like T7o because you think that your implied odds are high enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a standard cash game limp he's referring to. If there were deeper stacks, say in a MTT, i'd limp a lot of hands too.

I'm just in the habit of doing what this thread advocates not doing. I don't think that i'll quickly change either as i currently suck at playing poker, good think i understand position and blind stealing /images/graemlins/grin.gif