Simultaneous door-pairing

[blumpkin22]

Say you complete the bring in from middle position with the highest door card with a hand like (K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)T /images/graemlins/heart.gif and get called by the 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. On fourth, both of you pair your door cards. You bet and he calls. On fifth, you both catch blanks. Your action?

[beta1607]

need more information. Did you double bet 4th? This is where your read is important. Generally, I fire again on 5th and then hit the breaks if I don't improve.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Say you complete the bring in from middle position with the highest door card with a hand like (K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)T /images/graemlins/heart.gif and get called by the 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. On fourth, both of you pair your door cards. You bet and he calls. On fifth, you both catch blanks. Your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/ fold. I also don't play the hand that way on third.

[MrBlueNose]

Reminds me of a fun hand where I attempted to steal and it didn't work out too well....

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3937/stea8mc.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stea8mc.jpg)

[blumpkin22]

Don't play that way on third? Are you saying you fold this? Limp in?

I'm confused...With the highest up card, live cards, and a decent chance to win the antes/bring-in, I think this is an easy completion.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
need more information. Did you double bet 4th? This is where your read is important. Generally, I fire again on 5th and then hit the breaks if I don't improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, double bet.

[Andy B]

If I have any respect for the guy at all, I check and fold. Some guys will take one off with garbage on fourth street, and against these guys, I might fire one more barrel.

[Andy B]

At least you were spared from throwing anymore money after this dog. Don't attempt steals after someone has already limped. AQ is a hold'em hand.

[blumpkin22]

I agree, Andy.

The thing is, he called the completed bet on third with a 7 up to my 10. Would a reasonable player call with a pair of sevens there? Perhaps, if he had a hand like (A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. But isn't it more likely that he has a hand like (A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif)7 /images/graemlins/club.gif? Of course, in the latter case, he would likely fold on fourth, but maybe not.

It's a tricky situation to say the least. But I agree that the easiest solution is to check/fold fifth. If we are giving up something, it can't be that much.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, Andy.

The thing is, he called the completed bet on third with a 7 up to my 10. Would a reasonable player call with a pair of sevens there? Perhaps, if he had a hand like (A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. But isn't it more likely that he has a hand like (A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif)7 /images/graemlins/club.gif? Of course, in the latter case, he would likely fold on fourth, but maybe not.


[/ QUOTE ]

don't just try and put him on a hand you can beat. your opponent just paired his doorcard in a relatively small pot after calling a completion. It may be weak tight, but I'm not ready to fight at this point. Also, it would help if you were telling us the stakes, ante size, and bring in.


[ QUOTE ]

It's a tricky situation to say the least. But I agree that the easiest solution is to check/fold fifth. If we are giving up something, it can't be that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Say you complete the bring in from middle position with the highest door card with a hand like (K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)T /images/graemlins/heart.gif and get called by the 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. On fourth, both of you pair your door cards. You bet and he calls. On fifth, you both catch blanks. Your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what limit this was but given the info I have.

3 big cards (one gap straight) heads up, he's called with something, my guess is ofcourse split sevens, but he could have anything higher in the hole, therein lies the dilema.

If he doesn't have sevens and has a higher pair, could he have Jacks, Queens, Kings, or Aces?

If he has QQ or KK not only are some of your cards dead but you're "running uphill" as Roy West says (sorry Andy still reading it) and if he's got aces that reduces your straight possibility. (if he has 99 or JJ likewise)

There's just too many hands he could have besides that 4th street seven (though that itself not reason to fold because he hasn't re-raised pf) that I don't like, and unless the tens are totally live (if he had tens I suspect he would have raised) and/or this guy is a donk (like me) I'd be using that 4th street card as a check/fold excuse on 5th because he called 4th ... he's got something and he's not scared, this places you in an unfortunate guessing position for the rest of the hand.

Think about it, antes+2 bets if you check and fold on 5th, stay in the hand and it could cost you alot more and you could be dominated all the way ... not worth it IMHO, sit back, pick a better spot.

Cheers,
SDM

(Standard Stud Disclaimer: take my posts with a grain of salt)

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]

don't just try and put him on a hand you can beat. your opponent just paired his doorcard in a relatively small pot after calling a completion. It may be weak tight, but I'm not ready to fight at this point. Also, it would help if you were telling us the stakes, ante size, and bring in.


[/ QUOTE ]

This was at Party 5/10 (so .50 ante, $2 bring-in).

Perhaps I gave you the wrong impression. I'm not looking for excuses to continue with the hand. In fact, the exact opposite is true: I'm definitely looking to fold once he calls the double bet on fourth.

However, the situation is rather interesting. Think about it from villain's perspective. When I see a completion in front of me from a decent player with a 10 up and I have a 7 up, there are more hands I'm calling with that do not include a pair of sevens than hands that do. If I do have the sevens (probably with an overcard kicker), I'm looking to raise to make sure the hand is heads up. Of course, there are plenty of donkeys that will call raises with lower pairs and no kicker, so who knows...

[BeerMoney]

Ok, I assumed this was some micro limit from some wierd site. How come you didn't use the hand convertor? I also assumed the 7c was the bring in, although now I realize this is unlikely as you had the highest up card with a ten. OK, so I assume the bring in folded.

I'm not so sure there are more hands that don't involve a pair of 7's then those that do.. You didn't tell us how live your opponents suit was, or whether there were other sevens out. He very well could have a pair of sevens with an overcard kicker and is playing passively. I do it sometimes, and I don't really think its a miserable play.

He could have a big pair in the hole that he slowplayed, or is just passive all together.

He may have just called you on 4th street with trips assuming you have the hand you will usually have here after raising on third which is trip tens.

IMHO, this hand is precisely the reason why high bags suck. Now that I know this is 5/10, I stand by my defense that stealing from MP with a ten doorcard, with what are the for the most part rags, although not the worst starting 3 ever turned over is not the way I play. The bring ins in these games are all together to likely to defend with anypair, and you still have to get by the other guys behind you. I don't think its a terrible play, and I'm not even going to say its wrong, but its just not how I play.


Also, your assumption that your opponent knows your a good player is most likely unreasonable. It takes even an astute player some time to realize who's who at a poker table. Most players are probably on auto-pilot like myself checking email, surfing 2+2, and occasionally drinking.

If my tone sucks in this post, please dismiss it. I can be matter of fact sometimes.

Beer.

[blumpkin22]

Good points Beer.

I didn't use the converter because I didn't have the hand history at the time.

However, I definitely think that at an average Party 5/10 table, you are giving up money by not completing with the aforementioned starting hand. Not every time, sure, but definitely sometimes. The tables are tight enough to exploit this to your advantage.

Assuming that most of your completions are with very strong hands, your opponents will most likely give up on fifth (or earlier) if they don't improve much.

What do others think?