*puke* how many bets did I miss here? [Archive]

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RiverTheNuts

07-05-2005, 09:21 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

Vote4Pedro

07-05-2005, 09:25 PM

istewart

07-05-2005, 09:29 PM

AQ of some sort looks likely, depending on whether Villain will 3-bet it preflop. Either way, I can't put him on spades, AND you have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif, so I would 3-bet.

RiverTheNuts

07-05-2005, 09:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
AQ of some sort looks likely, depending on whether Villain will 3-bet it preflop. Either way, I can't put him on spades, AND you have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif, so I would 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
very good observation, if I wasnt a dolt and noticed this I would have probably 3 bet it too... villain flips AQ and mhig

Greg J

07-05-2005, 09:44 PM

I call down the river. Someone please tell me the value of 3 betting. Am I missing something?

Oh, and

[ QUOTE ]
(6 max, 10 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF?

istewart

07-05-2005, 09:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I call down the river. Someone please tell me the value of 3 betting. Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he doesn't have a flush (and I find it hard to put him on two spades exactly, aside from a "slowplayed" 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif), we have the nuts. There's JT98 on the board, he could have easily called with a Q this whole way.

Greg J

07-05-2005, 10:02 PM

Okay, I think since the flop was not 2 flushed you have a good point.

moot

07-05-2005, 10:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Someone please tell me the value of 3 betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

The value of 3 betting is that we have the best hand. So we're going to win the pot. So we want more bets in it. For when we win it. That's why we 3 bet.

Not raising here is a huge mistake. There are so many hands that we beat. Someone could be raising with a Q or even a 7. Or some random 2 pair. Please raise. Are you really that scared of a backdoor flush? It's just not very likely, especially with the turn action.

Greg J

07-05-2005, 10:18 PM

just noticed it was back door -- you are right.

RiverTheNuts

07-05-2005, 10:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the input... I get caught up in the moment too much... when someone pops me after a flush card comes I go into "party is rigged mode", grab my box of tissues, and call down... I didnt think a queen would raise this, but obviously it would... I figured given the betting that a queen popping this river would be about as likely as 2 spades were, so I viewed it as a pretty much neutral situation, and if he caps then the flush is out or we're chopping...

I 3 bet and he calls with Q straight or worse, I make 1 bet (50%)
I raise and he caps with KQ, I make zero bets (10%)
I raise and he caps with flush, I lose 2 bets (40%)

EV is around -.3 bets, no?

He needs to have spades only 1/2 as often as he has anything else to make this neutral EV, which I think the river raise is a strong indicator of alot of the time

TomBrooks

07-06-2005, 05:59 AM

Looks like you missed one or two on the river if you had the best hand, but I wouldn't have made an additional bet there.

xenthebrain

07-06-2005, 06:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
how many bets did I miss here?

[/ QUOTE ]
At most two.

marchron

07-06-2005, 04:01 PM

WARNING: 2+2 newbie here. If I'm wrong, be gentle; if I'm right, it was an accident, I swear.

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Button called two cold, so I think you can checkraise this flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (3.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks good.

[ QUOTE ]
River: (9.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reraise. You lose only to a runner-runner flush, and given his turn raise, a flush isn't near as likely as AX. If he caps you'll have to think for half a second then call anyway.

hizo1

07-06-2005, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
WARNING: 2+2 newbie here. If I'm wrong, be gentle; if I'm right, it was an accident, I swear.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm incorporating this into all my posts as well for an undisclosed amount of time.

[ QUOTE ]
Button called two cold, so I think you can checkraise this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Newbie to newbie i like this observation and it seems like a good idea, but you run the risk of it getting checked though and giving your opponent a free card. I can't explain why this is REALLY BAD, though any advanced poster will tell you it's bad. I also think if you bet out it disguises your hand (since most fishes would checkraise) and you can profit on the later streets as you did here (villain putting you on a pair resulting in the turn raise or two pair resulting in the river raise).

nomadtla

07-06-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Button called two cold, so I think you can checkraise this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Newbie to newbie i like this observation and it seems like a good idea, but you run the risk of it getting checked though and giving your opponent a free card. I can't explain why this is REALLY BAD, though any advanced poster will tell you it's bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not an advanced poster still rather newbie myself. But I will attempt a statement on why it's bad and let the Carpal/Tunels, and PoohBah's either have a rest or corect me if I'm worng here.
It's not the free card that I'd really wory about with it getting checked through here. It's missing Value bets. In the micro's people will call "fish like to call, I like to let them" - (forget who I heard this from on here, someone much smarter and better than I). Let them call while you have the best hand that's how you make money in poker getting people to call when you have the best hand. Now when you get to higher limits then you have to do other things to get them to call. But here in the micros their begging for it. Sure the check/raise is a fancy play and it feels cool to do, sure it might work, sure it might also diguise your hand (assuming the other player is even trying to read your hand, not common in micros), but you're missing bets here. Micro players make money from value betting. High stakes players make money from deception (and a hell of a lot of practice). Don't bother with the check raise here, you run the risk of missing bets and for very little gain in micro games.

Like I said at the start I'm still a newbie myself (I have a long way to go), and I'm not trying to be harsh but I think that's more why you lead here rather than the concern of giving a free card, and I just wanted everyone to think about that asspect of it.

2+2 wannabe

07-06-2005, 04:58 PM

checking this flop is absolutely terrible (i mean no offense to those who are newbies of course /images/graemlins/cool.gif)

cold-calling pf does not mean they will bet this flop - it implies quite the opposite (calling station)

if i know .50/1 (which i do) people love to call

bet bet bet bet bet this flop

you're giving up way too much money by not betting

marchron

07-09-2005, 03:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
checking this flop is absolutely terrible (i mean no offense to those who are newbies of course /images/graemlins/cool.gif)

cold-calling pf does not mean they will bet this flop - it implies quite the opposite (calling station)

if i know .50/1 (which i do) people love to call

bet bet bet bet bet this flop

you're giving up way too much money by not betting

[/ QUOTE ]I forget if O.P. included a read, but I think on a J/10/9 flop there'd be something for him to bet at, especially if he senses weakness with a check by us.

Of course, absent a read, you're probably right.