Rafael Palmeiro

[Hal 2000]

Should he go to the hall of fame??

[Jack of Arcades]

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Should he go to the hall of fame??

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I don't know, 3000 hits and 560 homers... seems kind've borderline to me.

[hoopsie44]

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Should he go to the hall of fame??

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I don't know why people still debate his HOF credentials. 3000 hits, 500 hrs, along with Mays, Aaron, Murray. He is a mortal lock.

[tolbiny]

Deserves to be a first ballot.

[pryor15]

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Should he go to the hall of fame??

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I don't know why people still debate his HOF credentials. 3000 hits, 500 hrs, along with Mays, Aaron, Murray. He is a mortal lock.

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b/c he uses a corked bat. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Triumph36]

He will go, but why do people doubt his credentials? He's been an All-Star only 4 times. He has almost never led the league in any significant statistical category. He has never won a World Series and has not even played in one. And his hits and home runs totals are inflated by having played in the juiced-ball era, not to mention playing in two of the best hitters parks in this era. He'll go, but I can see why there's a lot of questions about him.

[Voltron87]

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He will go, but why do people doubt his credentials? He's been an All-Star only 4 times. He has almost never led the league in any significant statistical category. He has never won a World Series and has not even played in one. And his hits and home runs totals are inflated by having played in the juiced-ball era, not to mention playing in two of the best hitters parks in this era. He'll go, but I can see why there's a lot of questions about him.

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good post

[sam h]

Exactly. He'll end up going because people are obsessed with statistics that aren't era-adjusted. Palmeiro has been remarkably consistent but has never been one of the best players in his league. He has been top five in MVP voting only once! That said, there are other players already in the hall who are probably less deserving.

[Jack of Arcades]

Did people say the same thing about Eddie Murray? I sure missed it.

There are plenty of players in the Hall of Fame, deserving players, who were never the best in their league. They performed so consistently excellent that they outlasted everyone who was better than them.

PS: Raffy played a significant part of his career pre-1993, but only people "obsessed with statistics" would know that

Average park-adjusted SLG during Raffy's career: .421
Foxx: .422

[hoopsie44]

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He has never won a World Series and has not even played in one. And his hits and home runs totals are inflated by having played in the juiced-ball era, not to mention playing in two of the best hitters parks in this era.

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Winning a World Series is a ridiculous criterion for HOF admission. Ted Williams and Ernie Banks never won a World Series either and should we devalue their numbers because they played in two of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball?

[CD56]

He was consistently the 2nd or 3rd best player at an offensively stacked position in the AL. Mo Vaughn/Frank Thomas/Tino/Thome all took turns at the top, but Palmiero was there, year in year out.

[Uston]

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Did people say the same thing about Eddie Murray? I sure missed it.

There are plenty of players in the Hall of Fame, deserving players, who were never the best in their league. They performed so consistently excellent that they outlasted everyone who was better than them.

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It's too bad that Bobby Abreu got a relatively late start to his career or he'd be following this exact same path to the Hall.

[pryor15]

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He has been top five in MVP voting only once!

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but was top 20 10 times.

the thing is, the people who vote for the MVP are the same idiots who vote for the Hall. the problem i have with the "so and so was a top 5 MVP candidate 6 times..." arguement is that is based on a vote that's very subjective, and therefore flawed. personally, i'd be much more comfortable w/ knowing how many times he was top 5 in the AL VORP than MVP voting.

in their HOF monitor, baseball-reference.com has him at 156.0. likely HOFer>100

[Jack of Arcades]

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Did people say the same thing about Eddie Murray? I sure missed it.

There are plenty of players in the Hall of Fame, deserving players, who were never the best in their league. They performed so consistently excellent that they outlasted everyone who was better than them.

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It's too bad that Bobby Abreu got a relatively late start to his career or he'd be following this exact same path to the Hall.

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Full-time starter at 24 is "relatively late?" (Relative to who, Mantle?) I have Abreu right on the HOF path.

[Jack of Arcades]

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He has been top five in MVP voting only once!

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but was top 20 10 times.

the thing is, the people who vote for the MVP are the same idiots who vote for the Hall. the problem i have with the "so and so was a top 5 MVP candidate 6 times..." arguement is that is based on a vote that's very subjective, and therefore flawed. personally, i'd be much more comfortable w/ knowing how many times he was top 5 in the AL VORP than MVP voting.

in their HOF monitor, baseball-reference.com has him at 156.0. likely HOFer>100

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Nitpick... that's Bill James's metric.

Palmeiro puts out plenty of top-20 seasons, but I think 1991 is the only year he was in the top 5 in the AL in VORP...

[Uston]

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Did people say the same thing about Eddie Murray? I sure missed it.

There are plenty of players in the Hall of Fame, deserving players, who were never the best in their league. They performed so consistently excellent that they outlasted everyone who was better than them.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's too bad that Bobby Abreu got a relatively late start to his career or he'd be following this exact same path to the Hall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full-time starter at 24 is "relatively late?" (Relative to who, Mantle?) I have Abreu right on the HOF path.

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Sorry, relative to Murray (21) and Palmeiro (almost 900 AB's before turning 24). And that's also assuming that Abreu's listed age is legit. For a guy who walks a lot and doesn't hit a ton of HR's, it's going to be very difficult for Abreu to get the countable stats that will get him into the HOF.

[[censored]]

Can't see how you keep him out.

However for some reason when I think of great players his name does not come to mind like it does with others who have similar numbers.

[Triumph36]

Ted Williams and Ernie Banks were clearly two of the best players in baseball history, but they played during a different time and for one team. Palmeiro plays in an era where he can choose his team, and where trades are relatively common. He still hasn't even made a World Series. This is not a ridiculous criterion, though I admit with the Yankees' recent dominance, it is less important than if several different franchises were winning it.

Whoever cited Jimmie Foxx: Foxx had some of the greatest seasons in major league history. Both players played with great lineup protection. But Foxx has 3 MVP awards, Palmiero has 0 and hasn't even come close to one.

Palmiero is the Mike Gartner of major league baseball.

[Jack of Arcades]

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Ted Williams and Ernie Banks were clearly two of the best players in baseball history, but they played during a different time and for one team. Palmeiro plays in an era where he can choose his team, and where trades are relatively common.

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This is [censored] ridiculous. When players go to the Yankees, they're mercenaries, but when someone else signs with a worse team they're greedy players that don't care about winning.

There are 1/3 more teams from the Ernie Banks era and now you have to go through three times as many teams to win a world series. There are plenty of superstars that have never and will never win a WS in this era.

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Whoever cited Jimmie Foxx: Foxx had some of the greatest seasons in major league history. Both players played with great lineup protection. But Foxx has 3 MVP awards, Palmiero has 0 and hasn't even come close to one.

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I cited Jimmie Foxx because he played in a more offensive-friendly era than Raffy, which was one of the points brought up against Palmeiro.

Seriously, some people are acting like Raffy was only slightly above average for 20 years. Raffy was consistently a top 5 1B and a top 50 player for for over a decade... he was a great player and lasted a lot longer than any of his peers while putting up very good numbers.

[Dynasty]

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Palmeiro has been remarkably consistent but has never been one of the best players in his league.

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Actually, he was one of the best first basemen in the league for about a decade.

He also won three gold gloves in '97, '98, and '99. Although, I believe the '99 win was a complete joke. He only played about 20 games at 1B that year and won the award on his reputation.

[adios]

We've discussed this in the past on another forum. He's almost a certainty to get in.

[Triumph36]

I disagree that there are many superstars who won't win a World Series. Well, there are a lot who won't win, but what about players who haven't gone? There won't be as many of those because most players, when they become free agents, go to the big markets, and they're more likely to make it to the playoffs (and therefore a WS) in a big market.

Palmiero will get in. But his achievements are not as outstanding as they look when you just look at his stats: it's easy to forget how dominant guys like Gonzalez, Thomas, A. Rodriguez, etc. were during this time.

[ThaSaltCracka]

stop posting Triumph

[Jack of Arcades]

Juan Gonzalez, Frank Thomas, Alex Rodriguez.

One of these is not like the others, and that man is Juan Gonzalez.

[battschr]

Jack, it's nice to see a voice of reason for the baseball discussions...you make it useless for me to post as you always beat me to what I'm going to say....plus I'm very lazy.

[BreakfastBurrito]

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Palmiero is the Mike Gartner of major league baseball.

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And Gartner was a first ballot no questions asked HOF inductee if I'm not mistaken.

[Triumph36]

He was, BB.

It doesn't change the fact that the Rangers dealt him for Glenn Anderson and went on to win a championship the same season. Gartner was another player who was very good for a long time but IIRC did not have any standout seasons and never won a championship. I also think if Andreychuk didn't win a Stanley Cup this past season, he wouldn't've deserved a slot in the Hall either.

[pryor15]

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Nitpick... that's Bill James's metric.

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once again jack tells me something i didn't know. it's a constant learning experience around here. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sam h]

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There are plenty of players in the Hall of Fame, deserving players, who were never the best in their league. They performed so consistently excellent that they outlasted everyone who was better than them.

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Of course this is true. I said in the post that there were plenty of less deserving players than Palmeiro in the hall.

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PS: Raffy played a significant part of his career pre-1993, but only people "obsessed with statistics" would know that

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Don't leave half the quote out to alter the meaning. The point was that the comparisons should be made using statistics that are era-adjusted. The comparison with the Foxx era is interesting and bolsters your point. But why be such a douche?

[Drac]

The only way he doesn't go is if they can prove he juiced. I think he's one of the top candidates for being juice assisted but they'll never prove it.