Pushing with more than 10x the BB

[Fortitude]

I haven't ran into any major material on this subject but if it already exists, point me there.

7 handed at 25/50

The players have various amounts of chips, it's anyone's game and it's been folded to you in the SB with 99, you have 750 in chips and BB has 1600. Is this generally considered a good spot to push?

[Freudian]

No. You are risking your entire stack for peanuts.

Just make a standard raise and see what happens.

[Fortitude]

If you consult eastbay's tool you will see that no matter what your opponents range of calling hands is, this is +EV. The only reason I posted this is because I thought their may be a better option. Do you care to provide a more detailed argument as to why this is a bad push?

[Sal Allegra]

Standard raise there, no Push Yet. You still have more than 10x's BB

[SumZero]

Just because it is +EV doesn't mean it is optimal. If you make the standard size bet you can have some one fold (no change from a push), reraise to which you push and either get called (no change from a push) or get a fold (better than the push as you win more money). The only place where there is the potential for a worse result is if he calls and then outplays you on the flop. But odds are against his overcards hitting and hopefully you are a better player. So standard raise and re-raise might be better play.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't ran into any major material on this subject but if it already exists, point me there.

7 handed at 25/50

The players have various amounts of chips, it's anyone's game and it's been folded to you in the SB with 99, you have 750 in chips and BB has 1600. Is this generally considered a good spot to push?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have no confidence in your postflop play, then go ahead and push. If you aren't afraid of having to play a little postflop poker then put in a normal raise.

[11t]

I think this is question is being asked in the incorrect context.

Verus an aggresssive BB I'd limp then push vs a raise.

Versus a tight BB I'd raise it to 150 then fold to a push.

Versus a standard player I'd raise it to 150 pf and bet 250 at any favorable flop (highest card = queen) and fold to a browadway flop to save myself 250 chips for a better spot.

Does what I said make any sense to anybody? 99 is a decent holding but pushing here with like 17xBB seems excessive and you will only get called by a higher PP.

[11t]

I think this is a bad push because you only get called by a hand that you are beat by.

Using this logic I push 72os here.

[11t]

I don't think fear of post flop play should be generating your decision here, you are going to be extremely pot stuck if you bet out 150 here and hit a decent flop.

Basically you are at preflop and flop play, no post-flop play involved.

[Fortitude]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply SumZero.

Let's go over a few things and see if you guys can do a better job of convincing me this is a horrible play because I am not totally convinced.

First let's give our opponent a read, this particular opponent was a donkish LAG capable of putting in action with any number of hands. My read on him is definitely incomplete.

Let's say I make the standard 3x raise to 150

he will then A. Fold, B. Call, C. Reraise, or D. Push

Of course I like the standard raise here if he folds as I have risked less of my chips to get the same amount I would get with a push. However, I don't like it if he calls, reraises, or pushes. If he reraises or pushes, I am quite committed to putting all of my chips into this pot against this type of player and it's a risk I don't like taking (more on this later). If he calls, I am out of position against a donkish LAG where I feel inclined to bet out on just about any flop that comes down. If he plays back at me, I'm going to have a tough decision to make that could easily send me out of this tournament.

I think it's also important to consider that though villan may reraise me or push back with many hands if I make a 3x raise he will only be calling with his top hands when I push. Why give myself a higher chance of getting into a race situation? Of course there is also the increased chance that he plays back at me with 1 overcard (<A8 70/30) and an underpair (<88 80/20). Maybe I want the increased chance of action? comments on that please.

So in short I am arguing that this push is better than a 3x raise because it keeps me out of a very marginal situation with an unpredictable LAG.

[MSUcougar]

In my mind, the most important reason for NOT pushing here is to preserve your table image. With your short stack, you're gonna be forced to push/fold really soon. If you push here, I think it presents a table image that you are a crazy maniac that pushes with A3, K7, etc. You'll be much more likely to get called when you push later and the blinds are actually worth something. In general, I think this is not something you want.

In this particular situation I make a standard raise or even limp and play the flop.

[Turk]

What is the buy in?

[Newt_Buggs]

I think that you're overlooking how valuable 99 is. Heads up its only going to run into an overpocket that dominates it 2.4% of the time and you will have him dominated 84.5% of the time. Based on your description of how the action turns out, it looks like you are afraid that you are going to get outplayed since you are out of position. If he is as aggressive as you fear it looks like you have two options: limp and reraise all in, or reraise and be prepared to call a push. After all, if he is going to reraise you all in with any ace, any pocket, QJ, KJ+ then you will still win 60.6% of showdowns. Basically, although it doesn't seem like it you have a monster and you do and you really can't afford to waste it.

[Fortitude]

215

[Fortitude]

I think limping may not be a bad option if the guy is the kind of LAG who would take offense to that pre flop. It allows me to push back at him with a hand that will dominate his a lot more than I am dominated. Of course, I will also be letting him hit with his J7o when he limps behind a lot and that makes me think this isn't the hottest of limps. I think you're right though, I am underestimating the strength of 99.

[Moonsugar]

If you raise 3x he will sometimes try to resteal with hands you dominate, if you push he will only call with hands that are at worst 45/55 but most times dominate you. From your post it seems like you think the fact that he will resteal is bad. It is good. Many players will try to resteal with 88 or A5 here. If this guy is the LAG you talk about and you have a tight image maybe he resteals with even worse hands. You say he's a donkish LAG why do you only want him to make one, relatively easy, decision in the hand?

[Fortitude]

Okay, fair enough. I like it.