Interesting 7CSFAP Fifth Street Play

[blumpkin22]

Rereading the book I recalled the following interesting play (p.88-89):

"Occasionally there are other benefits to a check-raise on fifth street besides getting more money in the pot. For instance, a check-raise might get you a free card. The play is to represent a strong hand in such a manner that if you miss on sixth street, your opponent will not bet (after you check)."

The example given is the following.

"You raise on third street with (T /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif) T /images/graemlins/heart.gif and are raised by a queen, meaning at least a pair of queens. On fourth street, you both catch blanks. He bets and you call. On fifth street, you catch a king versus another blank for your opponent. Check-raise a weak player."

Anyone ever use this play or something similar? At what limits? I'd be particularly interested in hearing from the more experienced posters (e.g., Roland, Andy B, etc.).

-blumpkin

[BeerMoney]

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I'd be particularly interested in hearing from the more experienced posters (e.g., BeerMoney, Andy B, etc.).

-blumpkin

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed your post.

[lane mcbride]

I use it once in awhile... My favorite usually goes like this. usually you can go for a check raise on the river if you make your hand on the river too. once you check sixth he'll bet seventh if you check (a lot of times)

[grb137]

Definately. This play should be a staple in any 7CS player's aresenal.

This play is designed for heads up pots. Considering how hard it is to get heads up pots in the lower limits, you'll not often see opportunity for it. Moreover, at the lower limits check-raises usually get called all the way down to the river. I don't know what it is...maybe curiosity, maybe taking it personally, maybe its "well I've put a bunch of money in already, so I might as well see it through"...whatever it is, people at the lower limits call check raises all the way down. Thats fine though, you'll win enough times to make it worth your while.

On a related note, - if you don't catch 2pr by hitting an overcard, don't puss out and check the river. Bet the hand on the end for value. Its very unlikely you'll get raised, even if they've made their 2 pr.

[blumpkin22]

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[ QUOTE ]
I'd be particularly interested in hearing from the more experienced posters (e.g., BeerMoney, Andy B, etc.).

-blumpkin

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Fixed your post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha.

I said "etc."...

[BeerMoney]

Just in case you were wondering who the superior player is...

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif___completes___calls
Roland: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___raises
Seat 3: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
BeerMoney: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif___brings-in___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds

4th Street - (6.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___calls
Roland: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets
BeerMoney: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls

5th Street - (4.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks
Roland: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks
BeerMoney: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks

6th Street - (4.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___folds
Roland: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets___calls
BeerMoney: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks___raises

River - (8.85 BB)

Roland: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif xx___calls
BeerMoney: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets

Total pot: (10.85 BB)

Roland: [ Qs 2d Qd Th 3c 7h Jd ] [ a pair of queens -- Qs,Qd,Jd,Th,7h ]

BeerMoney: [ As Kc 5h Qh 3h Ks 2c ] [ a pair of kings -- As,Kc,Ks,Qh,5h ]

[blumpkin22]

Nice hand.

Except for third.

[Andy B]

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BeerMoney: A K 5___brings-in___calls

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Puke.

[Andy B]

The vast majority of my experience is at limits of $6/12 and lower. What little mid-limit experience I have (at high-only stud) has come mostly in games against incompetents, which is how I like it. There just aren't too many heads-up pots.

That said, I'm not sure I'm wild about this play. If the other guy will fold, great, but I think of "weak" players as being callers rather than folders. By check-raising fifth, you might get him to check behind on sixth (if you haven't improved), but I think your typical "weak" player will check behind on sixth a fair amount of the time anyway, even if he's made two pair.

[BeerMoney]

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[ QUOTE ]
BeerMoney: A K 5___brings-in___calls

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Puke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, I do stuff like this cause I figure you'd appreciate it, and the forum would as well.

There were 6 2+2 people at the table, so I had a good audience for this hand.. I prefaced the 3rd street call with "who wants to see a bad beat?" I really only made the loose 3rd street call cause I knew my expert 6th street play would be a factor.

Please tell Roland, the other experienced guy, to stop trying to steal my bring in..

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BeerMoney: A K 5___brings-in___calls

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Puke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, I do stuff like this cause I figure you'd appreciate it, and the forum would as well.

There were 6 2+2 people at the table, so I had a good audience for this hand.. I prefaced the 3rd street call with "who wants to see a bad beat?" I really only made the loose 3rd street call cause I knew my expert 6th street play would be a factor.

Please tell Roland, the other experienced guy, to stop trying to steal my bring in..

[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of a 2+2 holdem player named rmarotti. When fooling around at low limits he often caps the betting preflop with 4-5 suited announcing "ultra-suckout-cap" and then exclaims "i am a lucky fish, a lucky fish..." when he hits the miracle two pair on the river.

[kylma]

Just a thought related to raising in stud vs holdem in small stakes games:

I have now logged in enough practicing hours to notice a big difference in how people react to raising.. Just played at UB 1/2, for example, and I kept raising on the 5th many times against probable better hands (in order to try to get it heads up, which I would have preferred). Everyone was very passive.. SO PASSIVE, that one guy checked it down till the showdown with a STRAIGHT two times! One loose/passive guy gets pretty disgusted and starts asking me if I raise on a wrong table. I also read the other post where someone commented that people are raising their eyebrows when you make standard raises in a live game in some casino.

I think people are more used to raising in limit holdem, because of the great supply of maniacs, and also tight aggressive players.. I guess there are less of both in small stakes stud games.. Do I have any point in this thinking?

[schubes]

Do any mid-stakes players on here regularly use this play? It may be a decent semibluff on 5th, but I can't imagine getting free cards on 6th often.

A check on 6th just screams "I'm not firing a second barrel, please don't bet!" Is this play exclusively against tight passive players who see you as passive?

[Andy B]

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There were 6 2+2 people at the table

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good reason to play some extra hands. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Roland]

This play has real value only if you think your opponent will fold some amount of the time. You’ll have a hard time making someone fold queens though. If I think I’m up against queens I would just call it down and check-raise when I really hit my kicker.
I do think there is a situation where this play makes sense though: If you think your opponent is semi-bluffing himself. If you play tight, people will eventually pick up on that, and might start re-raising you on 3rd with hands you can beat. So in your example, he might be in there with 77Q or something. Now if you check-raise him on 5th he’s hopefully going to fold 7s. If he doesn’t (and some won’t) that’s fine too.
Once again, though, if I think he has queens I’d just call it down.