Patriotic Dilemma

Well before September 11 I meant to get a flag for the house. One of the kits that you can put up on holidays and such. Thought it would be good for Veterans' Day, Memorial Day, and Independence Day. I never got around to it. When I thought of it I couldn't find one. When I could find one, I'd say I'd get it next time. So I don't have one and would like to fly one now. Of course, you can't get them. I have called a few places and can't find one. Everybody's backordered. Today I was in a store and they had flags. Great, pick one up and we're good to go, right. Not exactly. The flags were made in China. I couldn't bear the hypocrisy of flying a ChiCom American flag. But I suspect they are selling well. Not at my house though.

i agree. although i am all for buying the best product for the best price regardless of where its made, the whole reason for the flag flying is country patriotism and how can you justify that with a flag made elsewhere especially by a country that doesnt support the democractic process.

Dear Cousin,


Please get over yourself! Where the flag was made shouldn't make any difference. The hypocrisy, maybe in the Union Label. Free trade is where the future lies. One nation giving it's best to other nations in return for their best. I don't know who makes the best flags and frankly I don't care. I usually like what you write but not today.


SPM,...fly the flag and be proud to be an American...

I agree it's a dilemma. I think I agree with you, but then again what do you expect? I bought a Norweigan flag, and a Swiss flag- neither one made in their respective countries. Kind wierd if you think about it.

Oh yeah, they try to sell swiss flags that are rectangular at some places- now that's a disgrace.

Z,


You speak with fork tongue. Do you think anyone who sees this made in China flag will give it a second thought, as to where it was made? Or will they doubt the patriotism of the one flying it over their home. I think not, freedom demands that we let the other guy have his choice of politics. Live and let live, we don't have to agree with them.


SPM,...lets fly those flags high wherever they were made...

More holes than in this ridiculous dilemma. Should we now discuss where our oil comes from?


SPM,...deal the cards...

There's a good chance that ChiCom flag was made by slave labor in their prison camps just like so many of their other cheap goods are.


The political prisoners in China don't have a choice of politics, and neither does the common man in the streets or the peasants. They can't even discuss it without fear.


If they had chosen their system or their leaders it would be different. But not only did they not choose them, they don't dare even speak of free elections or democracy. So when you say let the other fellow have their choice of politics, that's just the point: the Chinese people don't, unless you consider an iron-fisted rule by a relative few to be the choice of all those whom they repress and deny the right of choice to.

What kind of stupid question is that? Come up with a better attempt at humor next time.

I you want to discuss where our oil comes from then start a new thread.

Are you a member of the John Birch Society?


George Herbert Walker Bush has many good things to say about China. In his illustrious career he was at one time the US special envoy.


Your solution for gun control below seems a bit extreme, too.

No, I'm not a member of the John Birch Society, but you are a member of the moron society. Have a nice day.

Not very friendly.

My day will be just fine.

Thank you

I also tend to believe in free trade, but I do try to avoid all products from China. I don't pretend to be succesful because you can't always avoid these products. I also know that there is some merit to the policy of engagement with China which can be debated at length. I just think we get much less in return than we send out. During the last Administration, invaluable missile technology went to communist China. We get trinkets from them. So it may be free trade, but it isn't fair trade.


I would buy a flag made in a foreign country, but not China. Taiwan, Mexico, Costa Rica, many places are just fine. But I could not look at an American flag flying on my house and know it came from China. I would not think of American history, or pride for my country or anything like that. I would think of political prisoners or members of a group that meditates beaten to the point of paralysis from their broken backs left to starve to death in a miserable cell. I would think of officials changing the method of execution of someone condemned to death for a political crime because they had sold the prisoners organs under the table. (They use shots to the body if they sold your corneas, shots to the brain if your internal organs have been sold.) I would think of women being forced to have painful abortions of children they want. If that is China giving their best, I want no part of it.

I own a manufacturing firm and we make a lot of goods in China. These goods are made in Guangdong province. The lives of the people there have been immeasurably improved in the past 20 years because of the openness of the provincial officials (with the permission of the central government) to allow foreign investment. The connection with Hong Kong has been the primary stimulus for the rapid industrialization, mostly in the countryside (as opposed to the cities).


While the workload is heavier than here in the U.S., and the factory conditions subject to somewhat less scrunity than here, the workers are doing far better than they were previously and there are literally thousands of people showing up when a dozen job openings appear. Many are able to save their money (the factories provide room and board in dormitories) and send it home to their families elsewhere in China.


Admittedly, what has happened in Guangdong province has not occurred all over China. But to assume that a cheap product was made by slave labor in prison camps is wrong. All of our major customers send their own inspection teams to the factories and check to see that labor conditions are maintained to their standards. I've seen many more factories here in Los Angeles that come closer to slave labor conditions than I've seen in South China.


There is a degree of democracy at the local and provincial levels in South China where much of the manufacturing in the country takes place. There is an old saying in that region that "The mountains are high and the emperor is far away." They have been allowed a relative degree of autonomoy to go their own way both politically and economically.


This is not to deny the authoritarianism of the communists that rule in Beijing. But a product that says "Made in China" does not mean prison labor or unsatisfactory working conditions.

Interesting post. Your post shows the reasons why engagement can potentially work. I have hope that no communist regime can survive in this era of the internet and free trade. I saw an article about a factory where some of the American flags are made. It didn't seem like a slave camp, but I never know what is true and what is put forth by the communist government. Your post sheds some light on that. I still won't buy a flag made in China though.

Your post sounded exactly like Ray Springfield trolling again. If you are not Ray then I apologize.


It struck me as rather unfriendly and illogical to ask if I am a member of the John Birch society when I point out the severe repression in China, and the facts that they utilize slave labor in their prisons and do not allow free speech or free elections.


Those are just the facts, not opinions, and have nothing whatsoever to do with political views. So unless you were trolling or being illogical, I don't see why you would ask me such a question.


Of course our presidents have had many good things to say about China. They are politicians, and China is a big player. If you don't believe me about China, use the Internet and do a little research. What do you think Tiananmen Square was all about, anyway?

Interesting, and I am glad to hear this.


For the record, I did not assume that cheap goods made in China were made by slave labor. I only said there was a good chance.

I've travelled to China. Its on par with Guatemala and El Salvador. Many US companies do business with China. That society has changed substantially from Maoist doctrines. Free Trade tends to encourage change. That has been the goal of US policy since Nixon recognized them.


Many people in the Midwest belong to the Birch Society. It wasn't meant derogatorily.


You seem somewhat obsessed with whomever is Ray Springfield.

* What kind of stupid question is that?


One with holes.


* Come up with a better attempt at humor next time.


Would you recognize humor if you saw it?


* I you want to discuss where our oil comes from then start a new thread.


No I'll take a pass on mixing it up with you. Goats always hit below the belt.


SPM,...take a deep breath and relax save your anger for something important...

I think there is some potential for China to fall apart, ala the Soviet Union, within the next 20 years. It is a longshot, but not impossible. The current leaders are horrible. Supposedly the generation behind them is just as bad, but then the next group is more progressive (it would hardly be possible for them to be less so).


I understand your hesitancy, though, to buy a flag made in China. First, its just seems wrong: a symbol of patriotism should be made in the country it represents. Second, the Chinese government is despicable. There aren't many communists left in the world. Hopefully there won't be any before too long.

China has changed substantially insofar as they realize the benefits of free enterprise. However they are more repressive now than they were 10 years ago. Strangely they seem to be the only major country society in the world which seeks to integrate capitalism with an iron control of the people and a repression of free speech.

well I made a typo,

I meant to say, IF you want to discuss oil blah blah....

Don't worry I don't "hit below the belt", and I don't know very much about our oil situation, so I wouldn't want to mix it up in that topic either.

And yes I recognize humor. Humor is awesome as long as it isn't lame humor.

well I made a typo,

*I meant to say, IF you want to discuss oil blah blah....


Yes, I know, but I thought it would be tacky to mention it. Typo's are my lifes work. I make them with regularity.


*Don't worry I don't "hit below the belt", and I don't know very much about our oil situation, so I wouldn't want to mix it up in that topic either.


Good!


*And yes I recognize humor. Humor is awesome as long as it isn't lame humor.


Sorry about that, if you have read any of my post you'd know lame is my stock and trade. Be warned if you hate lame humor don't open my post. It could effect your emotions which could put you on tilt. Tilt I would not want to be responsible for...


SPM,...play long and prosper...

Well, i never implied all your humor was bad (just the swiss thing), that would be wrong. In fact the majority of it is entertaining, so no need to worry about putting me on tilt :-)