What is more important in a fight, 100+lbs of weight or skill?

[kurosh]

I'm having an argument with someone and it's really pissing me off. They claim a 100lb 15 year old boy could kill a 300lb 6'7" muscular man, if the boy has been trained extensively in martial arts and the man has not. They also said some bs about seeing a 60 year old 100lb woman doing the same thing. Can anyone knowledgeable about this chime in? I wrestled for a while and there even 5lbs made a huge difference. I don't care if it's a little Bruce Lee, 200lbs of strength and speed is too much to make up.

[Vince Young]

The boy would have to be pretty damn skilled.

[Jeff W]

Royce Gracie def. Kimo Leopoldo by Submission (Armlock) UFC 3-The American Dream 9/9/1994

Royce Gracie def. Dan Severn Submission (Triangle Choke) UFC 4-Revenge of the Warriors 12/16/1994

Name Kimo Leopoldo
Height 6'3 (190cm)
Weight 235lbs (107kg)

Name Dan Severn
Height 6'2 (188cm)
Weight 250lbs (113kg)

Name Royce Gracie
Height 6'0 (183cm)
Weight 176lbs (80kg)

Weight difference isn't quit 100 lbs in these cases, but then again both of Royce's opponents were trained fighters and not random men off the street. Royce Gracie could certainly beat any untrained fighter no matter how much bigger he is and Royce isn't even the best MMA fighter of all time.

Could a 15 yo boy beat a 300 lb man? Yes, if he is as skilled as Royce.

Edit: Results are from Sherdog.com

[kurosh]

This is what I think would happen:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/kurosh/kuroshwins.jpg

[The Goober]

I think the boy could win if he was trained very specifically how to win this particular kind of fight. If he was quick enough to get in a really good nut punch or hit him just right in the throat, then I think he could effectively incapacitate the man.

I agree with you in general, though. I think at some point most of the smaller fighter's attacks become nearly worthless.

[oreogod]

So you disagree if the boy, had say, the skill of Bruce Lee. He still couldnt take the 300 lb man down?

Even if the 300 lb man grabs you, there are so many things a Bruce Lee skilled boy can do.

Most 300lb men are not speedy. And mostly its bulk, not muscle. And while they may have been high school wrestlers...its usually no longer true of them later in life.

[oreogod]

If you're skilled enough, u can take down a [censored] samoan.

And most 15 years olds are 130-150lbs.

[Eurotrash]

I added a few changes to fully capture the power of the skinny 15 year old


http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5080/kuroshwins0un.jpg



edit: MS Paint is a lot of fun. there should be a thread created dedicated to stupid MS Paint images.

[The Goober]

[ QUOTE ]
So you disagree if the boy, had say, the skill of Bruce Lee. He still couldnt take the 300 lb man down?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm with you here. I would think that Bruce Lee was so highly trained that he knew how to throw a mean nut punch.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you disagree if the boy, had say, the skill of Bruce Lee. He still couldnt take the 300 lb man down?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm with you here. I would think that Bruce Lee was so highly trained that he knew how to throw a mean nut punch.

[/ QUOTE ]

You here about that story where some guy came into his backyard while BL was with his son and wanted to fight him?

He axe kicked the guy, with his heel smashing down on the guys chest...cracked the guys rib cage right open. Im pretty sure its true. Never bothered to look it up though.

[oreogod]

also sorry about that, I read posts in flat mode and just hit reply to whatever the last message was.

[Blarg]

Well, just because you're not trained in martial arts doesn't mean you aren't athletic or don't have good timing.

Your reaction speed will rarely be anywhere near what a trained fighter's will be, though, nor your initiation speed(ability to start a movement off). Still, one good blow could do a lot of damage if you weight 3x what your enemy does.

But a blow has to hit to hurt. It's quite possible to hit someone a few times before they can hit back. If those hits are to the eyes or throat, that can be enough to end the fight. Maybe the groin. All those targets are hard to hit on a wary opponent, though, and you can actually fight through groin hits.

There's always a chance for anyone to win, but needless to say, you'd have to have a lot more skill and luck on your side if you were tiny. When you say "skill," there are such huge gradations even between very accomplished people that it would blow your mind, it's hard to even imagine what skill means, in a way. There ARE 100 lb. guys who are incredible fighters. The most famous fighter in Hong Kong in the 50's, and we're talking about street fights that were known throughout the colony, reported in the newspapers, and sometimes even involved weapons AND multiple opponents, weighed 100 lbs, and he was never defeated in over 50 fights. A guy like this could probably do it with little worry. But you probably don't bump into a whole lot of guys like that in your whole lifetime, if that.

[[censored]]

In general

Skill > Size when it comes to fighting.

[treeofwisdom7]

i took up MMA for a year or so. and its possible a light weight could take out a heavy weight with some striking skills. but like you said the light weight cant fight the heavy dude on the ground. so i think there is a chance standing up but on the ground i think it would be rare but possible.

its possible

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you disagree if the boy, had say, the skill of Bruce Lee. He still couldnt take the 300 lb man down?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm with you here. I would think that Bruce Lee was so highly trained that he knew how to throw a mean nut punch.

[/ QUOTE ]

You here about that story where some guy came into his backyard while BL was with his son and wanted to fight him?

He axe kicked the guy, with his heel smashing down on the guys chest...cracked the guys rib cage right open. Im pretty sure its true. Never bothered to look it up though.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had a 300 lb. heavy bag in his garage that he could make fly up to the ceiling. Sounds silly, but if you've ever been lifted off the ground and hurled through the air by a good sidekick, you know it's not that nuts. I've been airborne and sent other people airborne plenty of times with a sidekick. For someone with even halfway decent skill, it's not a very big deal to get some pretty big impact out of a kick. Heck, Thai kick boxers are noted for kicking banana trees in half with their roundhouse kicks. I saw my friend do it myself, and even holding the kicking shields for him could be kind of unnerving -- even through the thick pad, you took a huge wrenching jolt from his roundhouses.

[47outs]

That reminds me of the 40 or so midgets that took on a Lion. The Lion killed most of them, the rest were mutilated.

Lion 1 - Midgets 0


Lets put out this example as well. Say you train 50 6year olds just enough to kick and punch you (not well, just enough), do YOU think you could take 50 6year olds at the same time? What if they were allowed to bite?

To answer your question, the 300lb man would crush the boy. W
hen I was in my early teens I was in Judo for many years (Judo sucks BTW). Though I could choke out all my buddies, buy there is no way I would have been able to choke out an average man. Strength is just to big of an issue to overcome.

outs

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]

Could a 15 yo boy beat a 300 lb man? Yes, if he is as skilled as Royce.



[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, 176lb Royce can beat the 300lb man. 100lb Royce would not be able to beat the man.

100lb boy would need a gun to beat the man.


outs

[Macdaddy Warsaw]

You know the midgets story was fake, right? Yeah, I was disappointed when I found out too.

That said, I do think smaller figther's weight might be more important than the bigger fighter's. I think I could probably take on a well-trained 100 lb 15 year-old, and I'm about 240 with no martial arts training, but I'm not all fat either (gym 4 times a week for an hour and a half on average, all weight training).

EDIT: Think abou the 5 year olds and how many of those you thought you could take on. If the answer was more than let's say 5, you could probably take on this 15 year-old.

[augie00]

As long as the muscle man didn't get in any good blows. Because if the muscle man is sitting on the twig's chest and punching him in the face it is all over.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
The boy would have to be pretty damn skilled.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the man would have to be a complete physical-retard. The combination might make it possible.

[Lestat]

Most fights (in real life) end up on the ground. Once you're on the pavement with a 300 pounder, it's not gonna matter how quick you are. So for most people, you'd you be right.

That said, someone highly skilled in hand to hand combat survival or martial arts still might have an edge. Even at 300 lbs. it's hard to maintain a fight on the ground without an adam's apple, an eye, or a snapped neck.

[obsidian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Could a 15 yo boy beat a 300 lb man? Yes, if he is as skilled as Royce.



[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, 176lb Royce can beat the 300lb man. 100lb Royce would not be able to beat the man.

100lb boy would need a gun to beat the man.


outs

[/ QUOTE ]
Those were also trained fighters. I am pretty sure that a 100lb Royce could take out a 300lb guy if the guy was untrained. Of course Royce has also been training since he was a child so it is a little bit of an extreme case.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Most fights (in real life) end up on the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

no they don't. Ive never seen a bar fight or a real life street fight end up on the ground. Its two amateurts wailing away with wild haymakers. The ones that end up on the ground are UFC type fights were the guys actually know what they are doing and stuff.

Bruce lee would knock the [censored] outta some 300 pound fat guy with no skill. I'd take skill over size any day.

Didn't anyone ever watch "Surf ninjas", sheesh /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MoreWineII]

I'm not quite 200 lbs. Even though I'm not that skilled, I guarantee you there are some 300 lb. dudes out there I could kick the [censored] out of.

[Inthacup]

Royce Gracie vs. Akebono

http://www.roycegracie.tv/AkebonoVsRoyce.wmv

[chaas4747]

This conversation took place a couple of weeks ago when someone asked about training, and what they should learn to win a bar fight. I still contend that a person that is giving 100 pounds in a fight is at a huge disadvantage, even if the smaller person is well trained. That being said, I think there is a huge difference between someone 145 vs someone 245 to someone 200 vs 300. The 200 pound guy is more than likely built to take some abuse where the 145 guy just is not.
Bar fights are rarely about technique, more about aggression and who is more determined to win the fight. My vote is for the heavier guy in most scenarios, but there is always an exception to the rule.

[mach3]

I think a very skilled smaller fighter could beat a larger man, but that is a rare scenario. I have a friend whom I outweigh by about 60-70 pounds and have about 6 inches in height. He is VERY strong, stronger than me (we work out together), yet when we wrestle around, he never stands a chance. He has boxed and we've both dabbled in MA.

[NorCalJosh]

that video was great. i imagine thats pretty much how a fight like what the op is suggesting would go down. a 300 pound man is likely to only have brute strength on his side, and not very much in the way of speed. if anyone here HAS wrestled, they understand that a skinny wiry ass quick as lightning type dude is [censored] hard to keep down on the ground when he's all squirmy and [censored]. i'd say the 15 year old wins, if he's very highloy skilled and in the 125-150 pound range. i think anything lighter than that and he simply wouldnt have the strength to make any impact on the man.

[youtalkfunny]

I can't believe there's any debate on this one.

Sherman, set the wayback machine to 1980. I'm in high school. My six-year-old nephew, who recently started taking karate lessons, is over for a visit.

I get down on my knees, and assume a boxer's stance. "Come on, show me what they're teaching you in karate," I invited.

He was very eager to do so.

Before I knew what was happening, it was raining punches and kicks on me. I was very quickly in a ball, covering up, pleading for mercy.

That didn't convince anyone?

Sherman, set the Way-Back machine to 1988. I'm 21 years old. I'm 5'7", about 240 pounds, mostly fat, but I'm in much better physical shape than most fat guys, with surprising stamina and agility, but not speed.

I'm at work. It's coffee break time. Two co-workers are standing there, chatting. Sandy is about 6 inches shorter than me, older, and she can't possibly weigh more than 90 pounds. She is very excited about the brown belt she recently earned in Tae Kwon Do.

I, being a young know-it-all, scoffed at the notion of someone so puny being a brown belt. She just smiled, meekly (she was a very quiet girl). So I pushed it. I said, "What would you do if someone my size threw a punch at you..." and I lobbed a slow-motion right hook towards her jaw, with absolutely no intention of it ever coming close to her face.

In the blink of an eye, she was no longer standing there with her arms folded across her chest. I heard a very loud, "hee-YAAAH!" She had snapped her left arm up, blocking my right forearm with her left forearm. The trajectory of my punch was now deflected to more than a foot over her head. She caught me exactly half-way between the wrist and elbow, which I now realize is the spot where you would aim if you were trying to break one of those bones. I felt tremendous pain in my right forearm. The shock of it just plain froze me. And as I stood there, frozen, I noticed she had her right fist cocked by her ear, ready to take my head off if needed.

I thought she broke my arm.

I silently limped off, tail between my legs, holding my arm.

If you guys ever get a match between a trained boy and a guy off the street, please let me know ahead of time. I will lay odds on the boy.

Those who doubt me, suck cock by choice!

[bottomset]

they had a show on discovery where they measured the force behind a MA's kick, not sure how skilled the person was, but it was the same force as a car hitting you at 35MPH, or about the same as hitting the ground after jumping off a 6story building

granted thats a stationary target, but thats a pretty big hit

but I'm thinking most 15yrs aren't anywhere near that level, and would get stomped in the fight

[bernie]

Yes, a 15 yr old weighing 100lbs, if trained right, could take out a 300 lb'er who isn't trained.

If you wrestled, you should know that someone trained could take on someone heavier who isn't. I wrestled and noticed this. My older, bigger brothers got some suprises.

You also can learn to use one's weight against himself.

Btw...in general, the smaller guy has the speed on the bigger guy. Which can more than make up for the strength difference.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
A guy like this could probably do it with little worry. But you probably don't bump into a whole lot of guys like that in your whole lifetime, if that.


[/ QUOTE ]

If/when you do, you hope you're on the same side.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif
b

[Lestat]

<font color="red">no they don't. Ive never seen a bar fight or a real life street fight end up on the ground. Its two amateurts wailing away with wild haymakers. </font>

Those aren't fights. Those are just people trying to save face going through the motions of pretending they're willing to fight. If you REALLY want to fight a guy you don't do it inside a bar or a crowded street where you know it will be broken up right away. You go outside or meet somewhere where no one's gonna stop it.

[kurosh]

I don't mean 300lbs as in big fat guy. I mean 300lbs as in Alexander Karelin. http://nori.boo.jp/profile/img/interview_karelin.jpg

[vulturesrow]

The problem with this question is quantifying what a skilled fighter is, and trying to take into account how unskilled the bigger guy is. Between two individuals that dont have any MA training I am putting my money on the bigger guy. I would say as the knowledge of the skilled fighter increased, any size advantage is probably exponentially decreased. Now in the OP we are talking about a kid vs. an adult. Unless a kid is very skilled, he is simply at a disadvantage. Even with some training he may not be able to generate enough force to really hurt the biggger guy, unless he is able to strike a vital point. For the size difference the OP talked about, the kid is probably realistically limited to strikes below the waist, that is the nuts, knees and maybe the ankles. So I dont think the question really has a right or wrong answer. It would probably be easier to reach a conclusion if you more accurately defined what the relative skill levels were.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

Nit

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Nit

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch. /images/graemlins/frown.gif My bullet train post mustve really pissed you off. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Duffman]

Kick a 300 pound man in the knee and then he's just a fat guy on the floor.

[Ulysses]

These two guys I knew, Tong Po and Chong Li, their kicks could smash concrete support pillars. They could also strike the top brick in a stack of 15 bricks and break the bottom brick. Those guys were pretty badass, but they were heavier than 100lbs. Still, a little 100lb Tong Po would be pretty formidable.

Hmm, I just IM'd w/ Chong on this:

Diablo: hey man, you seen that 2+2 thread?
ChongLi: GOLDENPALACE.COM SPONSORS KUMITE
Diablo: WTF w/ your spam, man?
ChongLi: Sorry.
ChongLi: Reading thread now.
ChongLi: WTF? WHY WOULD U KICK A BANANA TREE IN HALF?
ChongLi: HELLO? BYE-BYE FREE BANANAS
ChongLi: RETARDS
Diablo: alright, later
ChongLi: late

[The Yugoslavian]

Dammit. I guess I'm back on the Diablo bandwagon unfortunately.

I demand a redo though on that Duck Fandango or what have you.

Yugoslav
Just when you think you're out....you get suuuuuuuucked back in.

[Sakuraba]

This is absolutely silly. The 300 lb man would destroy the 100 lb boy.

[Sakuraba]

I actually think the 6'7" 300lb muscular guy could beat up at least 2 (and probably more) of the skilled 100lb 15 year olds at the same time.

How many of them he could beat up at the same time would be a more interesting question.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
These two guys I knew, Tong Po and Chong Li, their kicks could smash concrete support pillars. They could also strike the top brick in a stack of 15 bricks and break the bottom brick. Those guys were pretty badass, but they were heavier than 100lbs. Still, a little 100lb Tong Po would be pretty formidable.

Hmm, I just IM'd w/ Chong on this:

Diablo: hey man, you seen that 2+2 thread?
ChongLi: GOLDENPALACE.COM SPONSORS KUMITE
Diablo: WTF w/ your spam, man?
ChongLi: Sorry.
ChongLi: Reading thread now.
ChongLi: WTF? WHY WOULD U KICK A BANANA TREE IN HALF?
ChongLi: HELLO? BYE-BYE FREE BANANAS
ChongLi: RETARDS
Diablo: alright, later
ChongLi: late

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, yeah, banana trees grow fast in the tropics though, and often only fruit once per season. He probably chose ones that had already been picked, and he only did it the one day. My friend had a whole hillside full of them in his back yard.

[hoyaboy1]

An important point here is that getting a guy in an arm bar wouldn't end a street fight.

[Inthacup]

Another important thing to remember is that Royce Gracie was 175lbs and Akebono was 450lbs. The armbar won't end the fight, but after tearing the guys arm off, it will put the smaller guy in an advantageous position to inflict enough damage to end the fight. Plus, he could use the detached arm as a weapon.

I think that using a 15yr old is a bad example, unless the 300lb guy is 15 years old as well. The physical development of a 15yr old adds another element to the argument which is irrelevant.

I think that the skill of an expert puncher/submission fighter would overcome the weight advantage. Here's another clip that isn't as relevant, but is pretty freakin cool to watch

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/652/

[Blarg]

In a real fight, arm bars are for breaking, not holding.

[Stellastarr]

[ QUOTE ]
I added a few changes to fully capture the power of the skinny 15 year old


http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5080/kuroshwins0un.jpg



edit: MS Paint is a lot of fun. there should be a thread created dedicated to stupid MS Paint images.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol nice!

[fingokra]

This is all a matter of degrees. If the 15 year old has Gracie like skills(fat chance), he would probably win. If he is a trained but less skilled fighter than one of the best ever (much more likely), he most likely loses. Except in extreme circumstances, I would be taking the guy with the huge weight advantage, just like I would take the 200 lb man that can't use his hands and arms over the 100 lb woman. I would feel pretty safe with my side of either of those bets.

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm having an argument with someone and it's really pissing me off. They claim a 100lb 15 year old boy could kill a 300lb 6'7" muscular man, if the boy has been trained extensively in martial arts and the man has not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless the BOY--the fact that he is 15 is more important thatn some will realize-- has extensive training he will have almost zero chance of beating someone of that size (unless the Goliath is basically retarded--even then it would be tough).

[Blarg]

Jeez, that "kung fu expert" was lame. Really skittish. Three half-hearted half-kicks at the lower leg, pretty much immobile, and then running straight backwards at the first sign of aggression. This guy was tailor-made to be taken down by anyone willing to mix it up a little, and had no confidence, or mobility, or aggression.

He did have the guts to take a beating, though. It took him a long time to give up. Still, a sad demonstration.

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
Jeez, that "kung fu expert" was lame. Really skittish. Three half-hearted half-kicks at the lower leg, pretty much immobile, and then running straight backwards at the first sign of aggression. This guy was tailor-made to be taken down by anyone willing to mix it up a little, and had no confidence, or mobility, or aggression.

He did have the guts to take a beating, though. It took him a long time to give up. Still, a sad demonstration.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blarg,

Keep in mind this guy had 15 yrs of training in Kung Fu and claimed to be undefeated. Gracie defeated this guy fairly easily. I think this video is MUCH more impressive than you think.

[hoyaboy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Another important thing to remember is that Royce Gracie was 175lbs and Akebono was 450lbs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that this is way more in the little guy's favor than 100 and 300, right?

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
Royce Gracie could certainly beat any untrained fighter no matter how much bigger he is and Royce isn't even the best MMA fighter of all time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Jeff,

Who do you consider to be the best MMA fighter of all time? Just curious.

[hoyaboy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Royce Gracie could certainly beat any untrained fighter no matter how much bigger he is and Royce isn't even the best MMA fighter of all time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Jeff,

Who do you consider to be the best MMA fighter of all time? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct answer is Fedor Emelianenko. Because of the nature of the sport (very young) the best ever is probably gonna be the guy that is/was the best in recent years.

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Royce Gracie could certainly beat any untrained fighter no matter how much bigger he is and Royce isn't even the best MMA fighter of all time.


[/ QUOTE ]


Could you please provide some links to video of him? I am off to google him now, but thought you might have some handy.

Thanks.
Jeff,

Who do you consider to be the best MMA fighter of all time? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct answer is Fedor Emelianenko. Because of the nature of the sport (very young) the best ever is probably gonna be the guy that is/was the best in recent year.

[/ QUOTE ]

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

Keep in mind this guy had 15 yrs of training in Kung Fu and claimed to be undefeated. Gracie defeated this guy fairly easily. I think this video is MUCH more impressive than you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also this match couldve ended a lot more quickly, as Gracie had an choke hold there near the beginning. That being said, I would say that in spite of the kung fu practicioner's claims, he certainly didnt show much skill other than the ability to take some blows.

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

Keep in mind this guy had 15 yrs of training in Kung Fu and claimed to be undefeated. Gracie defeated this guy fairly easily. I think this video is MUCH more impressive than you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also this match couldve ended a lot more quickly, as Gracie had an choke hold there near the beginning. That being said, I would say that in spite of the kung fu practicioner's claims, he certainly didnt show much skill other than the ability to take some blows.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume what we are told about him (kung fu dude)
is true. If so, there is a lot to be said about Gracie's ability and his technique, as he completely controlled the fight, neutralizing the other fighters capabilities.

[hoyaboy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

Keep in mind this guy had 15 yrs of training in Kung Fu and claimed to be undefeated. Gracie defeated this guy fairly easily. I think this video is MUCH more impressive than you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also this match couldve ended a lot more quickly, as Gracie had an choke hold there near the beginning. That being said, I would say that in spite of the kung fu practicioner's claims, he certainly didnt show much skill other than the ability to take some blows.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume what we are told about him (kung fu dude)
is true. If so, there is a lot to be said about Gracie's ability and his technique, as he completely controlled the fight, neutralizing the other fighters capabilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

A problem with many kung fu guys is that they have little to no experience in an MMA fight setting - and their skills aren't that well suited for it either.

[vulturesrow]

Believe me, I am not trying to take away from Gracie's ability, he has proved his ability time and time again. I just thought the kung fu guy didnt show much in my opinion.

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

Keep in mind this guy had 15 yrs of training in Kung Fu and claimed to be undefeated. Gracie defeated this guy fairly easily. I think this video is MUCH more impressive than you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also this match couldve ended a lot more quickly, as Gracie had an choke hold there near the beginning. That being said, I would say that in spite of the kung fu practicioner's claims, he certainly didnt show much skill other than the ability to take some blows.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume what we are told about him (kung fu dude)
is true. If so, there is a lot to be said about Gracie's ability and his technique, as he completely controlled the fight, neutralizing the other fighters capabilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

A problem with many kung fu guys is that they have little to no experience in an MMA fight setting - and their skills aren't that well suited for it either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Kung Fu just not practical? By the way, I just watched a couple of clips of Fedor--he looks like he passes out ass whippings all day.

[hoyaboy1]

[ QUOTE ]

Is Kung Fu just not practical? By the way, I just watched a couple of clips of Fedor--he looks like he passes out ass whippings all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am by no means an expert on kung fu - but it has been useless in MMA, and is generally bashed by MMA fans.

Fedor is god, btw. He has one loss where he was cut by an elbow on the follow through of a punch 5 seconds into the fight, and it had to be stopped. He was one other close fight, and the rest are domination. Right now, IMO, he is pretty much unbeatable - about his only real threat comes up in August.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Is Kung Fu just not practical? By the way, I just watched a couple of clips of Fedor--he looks like he passes out ass whippings all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is. count me as one who hasnt jumped on the MMA bandwagon yet. I do enjoy watching it, but generally we are watching the more skilled fighters. And the original UFC was basically a Gracie exhibition, so I wouldnt point to that as a proof of the greatness of MMA. I guess what I am trying to say, for the average person, it doesnt reallly matter much. It is certainly logical to think in a full contact match that it pays to be well rounded. Then again, my old TKD instructor won several open style full contact tournaments. Anyone who diligently applies themself to some form of MA is probably going to be able to handle themselves adequately in a self defense scenario.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jeez, that "kung fu expert" was lame. Really skittish. Three half-hearted half-kicks at the lower leg, pretty much immobile, and then running straight backwards at the first sign of aggression. This guy was tailor-made to be taken down by anyone willing to mix it up a little, and had no confidence, or mobility, or aggression.

He did have the guts to take a beating, though. It took him a long time to give up. Still, a sad demonstration.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blarg,

Keep in mind this guy had 15 yrs of training in Kung Fu and claimed to be undefeated. Gracie defeated this guy fairly easily. I think this video is MUCH more impressive than you think.

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I think the tape shows what it shows pretty straightforwardly. I'd certainly not go back to someone's claimed credentials to trump reality instead of letting reality speak for itself. Maybe the guy was just scared, but he gave a really weak performance. Claiming this one fight, as the narrator does, is definitive proof of the weakness of anyone who practices striking arts is really pushing things way too far.

I say this as someone with a third degree black belt in jiu-jitsu myself, having it as my first art. So I'm not a guy here saying too much is being made of jiu-jitsu or that it's weak or anything. I think I have plenty of perspective on it. But I've done striking arts for years too, and I'm familiar with their value as well.

I'm particularly well aware of the classic antagonism between styles along ethnic, grappling vs striking, hands vs foot-centric(foot-centric?), "mixed" vs. pure styles, straight vs. circular styles, and hard vs. soft lines, and even the vicious political infighting and disrespect that can go on inside the same style. (Both jiu-jitus and Wing Chun, the styles, I studied, are famous for that political infighting crap.) Claiming you're the greatest and that other styles are full of weaknesses is nothing new in the martial arts, and neither is being unfair about it; it's the norm. It's what people do to sell the product that is their livelihood. It's normal human pride and human weakness, often with a hearty helping of arrogance and ignorance.

The guy retreated in a straight line -- not what an experienced fighter does, no secret there.

He was very immobile -- some styles like that, some don't. I count it as a negative, but that's just me.

He flicked out a couple of lame low kicks that could have gotten him hurt a lot earlier than not doing anything at all. Maybe he was just feeling things out, but it looked to me like something more timid and undirected than that.

Gracie, in reasonably close range, had his hands down in a way a boxer would have taken advantage of, or at least tried to. It would have been a lot more productive than going for a half-hearted dig at the shin. Unless this guy's specialty is shin-style kung fu or something?

Not to comment on Gracie's skill, but Gracie was able to move in fairly easily because this guy wasn't threatening any serious targets even when given openings, so his offense, such as it was, didn't hold Gracie back, much less hurt him. Mr. Kung Fu was also immobile enough that Gracie had every reason to not waste any more time NOT trying a takedown. Whatever was going to come his way when he risked trying it wasn't exactly intimidating or off-balancing. It was a tailor-made situation for a takedown -- a guy who isn't aggressively taking advantage of openings to primary targets(which is after all what striking is all about) and who isn't mobile.

This was child's play for Gracie. Which is not to put down Gracie in the slightest. I'm pretty sure Gracie could take care of guys ten times tougher than this guy any day of the week. It's just that this guy wasn't up to the challenge.

For what it's worth, I think this is in yet another way a clear example of why it's so much the man more than the style that wins fights. We never really got a chance to see what the kung fu guy could do, because he was too intimidated to do it. A fight is no place for hesitancy and half-measures. Who knows what skill level this guy might have had? On another day, or with another guy of exactly the same skill level but more presence of mind, things could perhaps have been different. But frankly, in this match, this guy was guaranteed to lose. You can't win even a sparring match, much less a fight, fighting like that.

Lots of us have ideas about which style is best, almost all of which are piss poor and useless, one of the worst of which is that there is even a style that's best in the first place. If we're going to get judgmental, we at least have to do it in a fair arena.

Jiu-jitsu and kung fu are both potentially great. But this tape wasn't proof of anything except that a better fighter can beat a worse one. Please, if we're going to get into competitive "this style is better" stuff, we can't stretch the arguments too far out of shape with total mismatches and then claim proof.

[vulturesrow]

Good post. What really jumped out at me was this guys complete lack of mobility. Now my experience is almost entirely in TKD, which as you know is a fairly linear style. But if I _know_ they guy is looking for a takedown, Im going to be constantly in motion. And if he rushes me like Gracie did, you can bet he is taking a shot right in face.

And before anyone says it, Im not saying I could best Royce Gracie. Im just trying to point out why I wasnt impressed by this video, other than watching an obviously skilled fighter like Gracie.

[astroglide]

i think it would depend. if you're "i can do this in my sleep" skillful, then that's pretty good. but you can still make mistakes or take a bad hit. no matter what you do, you will not lose 100lbs of weight in a fight, so i'd probably go with that unless we're talking the TOP TIERS of skill.

[ChicagoTroy]

A fifteen-year-old boy by definition has not had extensive martial arts training.

Bruce Lee was pretty upfront that he couldn't beat Gene Lebell.

At the tip-top echelons (and I mean two or three living people in a given style), you may see some of this, but they're going to be at least in their 30's and male.

Unless the kid's a knife fighter, and that equalizes a lot.

[chaas4747]

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A fifteen-year-old boy by definition has not had extensive martial arts training.

Bruce Lee was pretty upfront that he couldn't beat Gene Lebell.

At the tip-top echelons (and I mean two or three living people in a given style), you may see some of this, but they're going to be at least in their 30's and male.

Unless the kid's a knife fighter, and that equalizes a lot.

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Or has bow hunting skills or numchuck skills.

[Biloxi]

The title says 100lbs of weight but example says 200lbs.

Either way its still possible if the large guy had no idea what he was doing. But if the big guy gets a hold of him then alot of his moves wont work, lil guy would have to resort to damage inflicting moves like eye gouge,ear rip, nut bust, throat collapse, etc..

All of which can be learned at Rex Kwon Do dojo

[mosta]

I assumed the reason you don't see much kicking (aside from low, to the legs) in UFC (which I've only seen a little of) is that high kicks are obvious and slow and only end up compromising you. you really thing you could defend against a take down with a high kick?