Torre's 10th inning last night

[Voltron87]

Ok, so last night Joe Torre did something I thought was, plain stupid.

Bottom of the 10th. top of the os lineup is coming up, roberts leading off. gordon had pitched two innings as was out. everyone else is available. other factors- bj ryan had pitched two innings and was out. the good part of nyys order was coming up in the 11th, cano sheff arod.



So Joe Torre brought in Mike Stanton, 1st pitch to Roberts is right over the plate and Roberts just destroys it. Torre could have brought in Rivera or Sturtze, but chose the crappy 6+ ERA stanton. Would anyone pitched Rivera here in a non save situation? Or at least not Stanton, maybe Sturtze?

[kyro]

I hear theo is offering torre a job with the red sox as a bench coach. maybe he'll take sveum's job at 3rd base.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so last night Joe Torre did something I thought was, plain stupid.

Bottom of the 10th. top of the os lineup is coming up, roberts leading off. gordon had pitched two innings as was out. everyone else is available. other factors- bj ryan had pitched two innings and was out. the good part of nyys order was coming up in the 11th, cano sheff arod.



So Joe Torre brought in Mike Stanton, 1st pitch to Roberts is right over the plate and Roberts just destroys it. Torre could have brought in Rivera or Sturtze, but chose the crappy 6+ ERA stanton. Would anyone pitched Rivera here in a non save situation? Or at least not Stanton, maybe Sturtze?

[/ QUOTE ]

only thing i can think of is wanting to save river for the save, plus he pitched the night before (along with sturtze, albeit only one inning apiece) also, roberts is less dangerous from the right side of the plate (both this season and in his career

[hoopsie44]

Torre wanted to turn Roberts around since he's killed Yanks all year from left side. Also, Rivera had pitched 2 previous nights and didn't want to bring him into a tie game.

[Jack of Arcades]

Yeah, that was pretty damned bad.

Rivera needs to be in in that situation.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Torre wanted to turn Roberts around since he's killed Yanks all year from left side. Also, Rivera had pitched 2 previous nights and didn't want to bring him into a tie game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is really dumb - if you don't use one of the best relievers in the game in one of the most important situations you'll likely ever come across... when will you use him?

With a three run lead?

Ridiculous.

[Voltron87]

i think the idea of switching roberts up is plain dumb, especially if you have to go to someone like stanton to do so. thats like pinch hitting bubba crosby for matsui because a lefty pitcher is on the mound.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the idea of switching roberts up is plain dumb, especially if you have to go to someone like stanton to do so. thats like pinch hitting bubba crosby for matsui because a lefty pitcher is on the mound.

[/ QUOTE ]

well its not dumb, because he is worse by a decent margain from one side of the plate then the other. however, when it requires brining in a pitcher who is signifiganlty worse than another guy it tends to lose value /images/graemlins/grin.gif

also, bigbie (L) was due to bat second. i dunno...given that situation along with rivera having picthed two previous nights in a row, i can see what he was thinking i suppose.

[Dead]

It was the right decision. You would have second guessed Torre if he uses Mo and Mo gives up a homer to Brian from the left side. It was a tough decision but ultimately the right one.

[Voltron87]

well its dumb if you have to twist the bullpens arm all around to get him on the left side of the plate.

my analogy is good.


if we had a capable pitcher to bring in to get roberts to go righty and could save mo for later, id support it. but stanton is just awful.

[Voltron87]

dude, how is putting stanton in the right move?

i wouldnt have complained if mo went in and lost, what could anyone complain about?




people can say "oh we're the road team, save the closer" but putting someone like stanton facing their good hitters is flat out bad.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
well its dumb if you have to twist the bullpens arm all around to get him on the left side of the plate.

my analogy is good.


if we had a capable pitcher to bring in to get roberts to go righty and could save mo for later, id support it. but stanton is just awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you agree with my last post entirely

[Voltron87]

yeah.

[sublime]

also if your not goin to use stanton in a spot like that he shouldnt be on the team (see: embree, alan)

really whats his purpose if he cant come in and turn a hitter around and then face a lefty and hand the ball off to a more capable pitcher? I'm not saying i agree with torre, but he has to work with what hes got. rivera cant pitch every important inning of every game.

[Voltron87]

well stanton should be on the team, thats how weak our pen is.

i would have sent rivera in to the 10th, and if the 10th was short send him for the 11th. after rivera is sturtze.


stuff like this is a pretty clear sign your bullpen is [censored].

[Dead]

Stanton was the right move. I stand by Torre.

Dead

[Voltron87]

all of stantons stats are crap. hits/inning, bb/k, era, theyre all awful. throwing him in front of the top of the lineup is just suicide, he had no chance.

put in rivera, and when hes done put in sturtze. but stanton is just bad. theres no reason to put stanton in when you have a better option (sturtze) and a much better option (rivera). and you want to let cano sheff and arod at least get to the plate.

[hoopsie44]

[ QUOTE ]
i would have sent rivera in to the 10th, and if the 10th was short send him for the 11th.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't have Rivera pitch 2 innings in a tie game and it's his 3rd consecutive night he's pitching. That eliminates him from tonight's game when you may have a save situation.

[Voltron87]

ok fine, that makes sense, put rivera into the 10th and sturtze in the 11th. sturtze can do more than 1 inning.

but dont send stanton in.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
ok fine, that makes sense, put rivera into the 10th and sturtze in the 11th. sturtze can do more than 1 inning.

but dont send stanton in.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Stanton had struck out Roberts and Mariano had come in to face the next two and we had won it in the next inning, you wouldn't have even started this thread.

Stop being results oriented. Roberts doesn't hit a homer against Stanton from the right side EVERY TIME. Not even close. It wasn't a bad pitch.

Sending Mo in to face someone batting over 400 from the left side is just a dumb idea.

[Voltron87]

i would bet that roberts bats higher from the right against stanton than he does against from the left against mo. its like sending in a .250 lefty hitter to face a righty pitcher instead of a .300 right handed hitter.

im not saying mo is the only person who should go in, but its not stanton. plus mo is great against lefties. stanton should be a last last resort in big game-extra inning situations.

[Dead]

Mo is not GREAT against lefties. This year he has dominated righties more, but over his career righties and lefties both hit about .215 off him.

[Voltron87]

i still maintain that rivera vs lefty roberts is much better than stanton vs righty roberts.

stanton is so bad, there is really no reason to have him out there in the bottom of the 10th against the top of one of baseballs hottest lineups.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
i still maintain that rivera vs lefty roberts is much better than stanton vs righty roberts.

stanton is so bad, there is really no reason to have him out there in the bottom of the 10th against the top of one of baseballs hottest lineups.

[/ QUOTE ]

stanton is so bad the are gonna release him today! (quantrill also appraently)

[andyfox]

The problem with bringing in Rivera on the road is that if the Yanks don't score their next at bat, he'd have to go three innings:

e.g.:
Bottom of 10th: Rivera pitches
Top of 11th: Yanks don't score
Bottom of 11th: Rivera pitches
Top of 12th: Yanks score
Bottom of 12: Rivera pitches, saves game(?)

I would have gone with Sturtze.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with bringing in Rivera on the road is that if the Yanks don't score their next at bat, he'd have to go three innings:

e.g.:
Bottom of 10th: Rivera pitches
Top of 11th: Yanks don't score
Bottom of 11th: Rivera pitches
Top of 12th: Yanks score
Bottom of 12: Rivera pitches, saves game(?)

I would have gone with Sturtze.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he have to go three innings?

You bring in Sturtze, Groom, or Proctor afterwards.

What would you rather have?

Mo pitching in a tie game, Sturtze pitching with a 1-run lead, or

Sturtze pitching in a tie game, Mo pitching with a 1-run lead?

[Voltron87]

1. first off, i think we can agree the right move does not involve stanton pitching to roberts, or anyone else at the top of their lineup.

i think it would be most useful to use rivera to get past the toughest part of their order. and using him does not mean he has to pitch until a save situation. maybe rivera once, let the top of our lineup and our power hit, then go to sturtze.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
1. first off, i think we can agree the right move does not involve stanton pitching to roberts, or anyone else at the top of their lineup.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, what [censored] use is Stanton if he can't even face lefties in a crucial situation? That's what he's here for(well, was, at least, now I hear he got canned along with Q- can't say I'm disappointed).

[Voltron87]

thats the point. stanton and quantrill are awful. goes to show how much trouble our pen is in.

[andyfox]

The game was an important game, against a team ahead of them. I certainly wouldn't have brought in Stanton, whose best years, which were none too good anyway, were five years or more years ago. But manager are hesitant to bring in their closers when behind on the road. Nevertheless, Torre did this in the 9th inning of game one against the Mets in the World Series. So he has done it before.

Upon further relfection, were I managing the team, I would have brought my best pitcher in in that situation. Rivera. He had thrown only 8 picthes the night before. Let him pitch two innings and then, I agree, go with the next best either to save the game or keep it going. Sturtze. Stanton should be a lefties-only pitcher at this stage of his career.

[andyfox]

I agree. Rivera for two innings, then Sturtze. A better plan than mine, a much better plan than Torre's.

[andyfox]

Since 2002, lefties are hitting .255 against Stanton, .212 against Rivera.

[Voltron87]

bj ryan is a FA at the end of this season. what are our chances of getting him? i would be very happy to have him.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
bj ryan is a FA at the end of this season. what are our chances of getting him? i would be very happy to have him.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes not going to a team to be a setup man. btw, the NYtimes is now reporting that stanton and quantrill will be let go today....where is the official release?

[Voltron87]

what about a setup man who earns more than 9/10 closers? and who sets up for the greatest closer in history of the game, and gets to pitch in the playoffs?

ok, im exaggerating, but he would do so much for us.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
what about a setup man who earns more than 9/10 closers? and who sets up for the greatest closer in history of the game, and gets to pitch in the playoffs?

ok, im exaggerating, but he would do so much for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

baltimore, for one, is a big market team. they also dont have the handcuffs around them that the NYY do. so while saying 9/10 teams is actually accurate, it doesnt matter since 9/10 teams probably cant afford him /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Voltron87]

well, im not going to let some sox fan (or, "logic and facts") crap on my dreams.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
well, im not going to let some sox fan (or, "logic and facts") crap on my dreams.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good point /images/graemlins/smile.gif