*IMPORTANT* Please Read - Forum FAQ/Wiki

[maddog2030]

Everyone's sick of the seeing the same damn threads all the time. We have a FAQ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2540909&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1), but I have no idea why it's not stickied.

AKQJ10 has been trying to push the idea of a SNG Wiki (http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Sngs) (essentially a community run FAQ). When he first posted it, I simply didn't think it would work. But the more I think about it, the better I like the idea. I've started it off with Citanul's FAQ in Wiki form. I didn't have time to format everything perfectly but I expect stuff to get moved around a lot in the beginning if this picks up. I didn't ask for his permission to reproduce it, but if he asks I'll take it down, or he can just sue me. He could even take it down himself if he wants as this is a community project.

I merely posted it as a starting point. From there, we can all expand on his answers or add new Q/A's as the need arises (e.g. Is this a good example of a Gigabet play? No.) Sections can be added or broken down into subsections as people add more and more content. You don't even necessarily even need to write an article. You see a well explained post that answers a question you see all the time? Go to the wiki and just link to the post. Problem solved.

If people think there's enough interest in doing this, I can help push it really hard to Mat to get it stickied. If you think this is a dumb idea or won't work, let me know that too. But I think the FAQ will evolve and expand very quickly as people get so sick of seeing the same questions and say "F it, I'm just going to Wiki this so I never have to see it again."

It might also be useful in setting up an "up-to-date Shadow thread" so new insightful posts can be added over time, or people can add threads they liked that Shadow might have overlooked. But that's just another thing we can do with this wiki.

[AKQJ10]

Thanks for announcing this. The FAQ on there looks great.

Just as a small clarification, the wiki includes many different kinds of poker, not just SnGs. But because this forum is putting together an FAQ, the timing of getting the SnG stuff up there for consensus editing is good.

[maddog2030]

I take it absolutely no one is interested in this, then?

[astarck]

I think it would be good for the forum. I can see a lot of posts asking the same questions over and over disappearing.

I just don't know who will be willing to provide a lot of the content. We could just get the FAQ stickied and then nobody would need to write up the content.

[gildwulf]

Get FAQ stickied with a link to the wiki.

[The Yugoslavian]

Meh.

I could just pm myself and ask for the best threads and then within like 15 minutes have the list.

Yugoslav

[gildwulf]

How many different threads can you say 'Meh' in in one day?

[Apathy]

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How many different threads can you say 'Meh' in in one day?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only the best ones.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many different threads can you say 'Meh' in in one day?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only the best ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugoslav

[elonkra]

This needs to be stickied.

If someone can sticky this with a really good subject line that will catch the attention of newbies before they make their first post, the forum will benefit.

I'm still a relative idiot around here, but I remember the first time I came to 2+2 I couldn't figure out the lingo and just left. Finally, I came back and started asking all the dumb questions answered in this sticky until I figured out what was going on.

It's a crime that there is no sticky in the STT forum. Of course, I guess that would make for more people here learning how to play. Hmmm...

[maddog2030]

Well, the forum just doesn't have much interest in the project, so I'm not going to try to get something stickied nobody's interested in.

[gildwulf]

Look at the replies. People are interested. Just because a lot of the older players want to make it difficult for anyone to find useful info on this forum doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Definitely contact the administrators on this.

[maddog2030]

This was about a FAQ, not a favorite threads list, so there's no "valuable" information to really be hiding. The Q/A in there are just basic knowledge that the forum should want you to have if you're going to post here.

I don't want to go to Mat, get it stickied, and then have people complaining about it.

[gildwulf]

The FAQ is pretty valuable information.

[maddog2030]

You are correct. I meant more in a way that it's something you want to keep secret because it could theoretically be used against you. There's not much in there that's going to make someone all that better at playing SNGs. But it would make them a better poster.

[AKQJ10]

For that matter I find the scenario of links to valuable threads becoming -EV by teaching fish to play better to be a little out there for more reasons than I feel like listing right now. If that's the consensus* then so be it, but so far no one's tried to sabotage my efforts to make things easier to find.

If you don't want to help the project out, you don't have to. But if your understanding of poker is too valuable to share with others, you probably shouldn't spend time at a forum like this -- just burying your pearls six pages deep isn't going to keep them secret.

I tend to feel that I get out what I put in, but that's just me.


*I'm not sure it is, but I'm a latecomer -- the unscientific poll I saw was about 65-35 against a sticky "favorite threads".

[wulfheir]

This is my take on this forum, I've only been here around 7 months, and I'm a losing player at the party $11s.

For the point of this post, I shall refer to the newcomers to this forum as "newbies". I'll refer to the long time members who have consistantly shown they are winning players as "oldbies". Oldbies have posted strategy that has proven to be winning strategies over many hands.

Why do Oldbies post here? They have developed their skills with the help of their peers and want to continue their development with the insight and review of said peers. Plus, it's their hangout.

Why do they help Newbies? I think there are 3 reasons. All three reasons might apply to some Oldbies, some only 2, and some only 1. First, because they got help in their development, and wish to return the favour to the community. Second, people like to talk about things they like and are good at. This goes for all sorts of hobbies/professions. Third, they want to demonstrate their mastery of the game to others because it makes them feel good. They are all valid reasons to assist new players.

While they are honing their skill, reviewing HH, running numbers, writing programs, newbies stumble into the forum looking for guidance in their new found hobby and recognize from the tone of the forum that this is the place to be.

For the above stated reasons, some Olbies choose to help the Newbies. But they don't want to simply hand out answers, as this really doesn't help. All you have to do is read a few threads to realize that the thought pattern behind an action is more important than the action itself. Refer to the biblical metaphor about teaching a man to fish. A deeper reason to this, is that the winning strategies found in this forum were developed by trial and error, thought process, evaluation, review, as well as some sufficient bankroll. They want Newbies to find the answer similarily, however, many choose to help us get there by providing their trial and error reports, their thought-process and evaluation. Most beginner questions are only left 10% unanswered, the other 90% of the answer is usually provided.

The decision to leave many of the guide's developed over the months/years off the front page, actually helps those learning the game. The basis of this decision appears to be selfless, as opposed to selfish.

They could just as easily take the following approach; post all ABC guides/post on front page. Read the threads of their peers exclusively. Reply to newbies posts with a blanket "read the guide on front page" response. Done.

I don't know if this is a conscience thought process any of them have gone through or not. I don't know if this is at all accurate. But this is my impression as a lurker and a learner.

Thoughts?

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

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Superb post, even though I'm not yet ready to "come around to your position." Or to look at it another way, we agree on the big picture but disagree on the mechanics.

You're absolutely right about "teaching someone to fish," but I disagree on where the boundaries of that approach lie. If someone walked up to me with a bound hard copy of the 100 best posts on this forum over the past year, my work would be about 5% complete. The other 95% is taking those posts, understanding what makes them "good", filtering out the bad or inappropriate advice, and applying them at the table.

To me that first 5% is just a frustration so I can do the harder, but more enjoyable, work of improving my poker. Therefore I see no reason not to whittle down that 5%, and to help others whittle it down, so as to put the focus even more where it rightly belongs. Those who succeed on taking that advice and applying it will go on to be good players, but they would have been anyway. The work of hunting posts in a forum isn't the real meat of learning to play; it's thinking about those posts in the shower or on the way to work that really makes one into a better player. Of course no one can do that part for you.

So we disagree on this minor issue, but I think we agree on much.

[gildwulf]

I agree this is a good post.

However, I think you are confusing the skill of 'being able to sift through a bunch of crappy posts' with 'learning and becoming a better player'. Forcing people to rifle through a bunch of noise is not "teaching a man to fish", nor does it improve your ability to understand 2+2. For instance, if I were to give a newbie the top 10 posts in the SNG forum (I'm sure Gigabet's mindboggling post would be at number 3 or 4), the n00b wouldn't be able to understand half of them anyways. Doing something like stickying the FAQ or providing people with a starting point for looking at posts (like the SNG digest I just posted) IS "teaching a man to fish". It's teaching because it's saying 'here's a good place to get started, here are some interesting discussions that you should read and learn from, so study them'.

Here's another example: imagine if TOP was expanded to 1500 pages long (with the same content), and every other word was gibberish (ie: "Expected value blarg is very rewarwerr important". The person who finished the book and understood the message is a better player not because he/she rifled through the gibberish, but because he/she took the time and energy to finish the book. The original content is the cause, not the act of reading through the content and the gibberish.

Since 2+2 has no editing process, we can analogize the SNG forum to this 1500 word gibberish-infested TOP book. There's a lot of great stuff, but you have to dig through a bunch of crap to find it. Does digging through this crap make you a better player? No. Reading the good stuff does.

Are stickying favorite threads and FAQs -EV? I really don't think so. For someone to understand a lot of the lingo and concepts (ICM, Gigabet theory, etc), one has to have either a strong background in poker theory from 2+2 books or read 2+2 religiously. Just giving someone a list of favorite threads will NOT make them a better player: they still have to put in a significant amount of effort in understanding and learning from the posts. The only difference is they don't have to read gibberish every other line to find it.

[Barcalounger]

Oldies hanging out reason #4) repeat 'meh' until they attain carpal tunnel status.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
Oldies hanging out reason #4) repeat 'meh' until they attain carpal tunnel status.

[/ QUOTE ]

NH

[tech]

There was a huge thread a few weeks ago on whether or not the FAQ should be stickied. I don't remember the exact outcome, but it's not up there so I assume it was a no.

[maddog2030]

That was the Favorite Threads link, right? Not the FAQ?

I can't think of a single good reason why a FAQ should not be stickied.

[maddog2030]

Update: Mat cannot sticky a link to a Wiki because it is not under their direct control. I figured this might be a problem from the start, but even clearly bolding "no affiliation to 2+2" at the top and bottom of the stickied post is not a solution. With 2+2's success, Mason would rather not take any risks of something happening out of his control that possibly could be connected back to him or 2+2. I respectfully disagree in this particular case, but I'm sure I'd have a much different outlook if it was my bread and butter on the line.

In any case, I think the wiki can still be a good resource if people want it to be. If it gets useful enough as a FAQ, a snapshot of it can get posted to reduce the number of repetitive posts.

[AKQJ10]

Interesting... I wonder who stickied the Beginners' FAQ, and why this wasn't an issue?

I can't blame 2+2 for wanting to enforce quality control, but it does make it harder for us. I think the wiki/snapshot idea is good -- maintain a "live" dynamic version and then repost a static snapshot once a month, say.

[maddog2030]

Which forum is the Beginner's FAQ in?

[AKQJ10]

Beginners Questions. /images/graemlins/smile.gif It's under General Gambling, and the sticky in question is "Links for beginners".

[maddog2030]

Heh, whoops. I looked there, but because I'm remotely accessing my home computer from work, I have images turned off and didn't realize stickied threads were the same color as normal ones, and I didn't see the image of the thumb tack so I passed over it. I even clicked the link at one point. What I'm trying to say is that I'm an idiot.

I think the difference might be that instead of just a web link, a wiki might be... I don't know. You'd have to ask Mat.