Should I have raised? #2

[Blarg]

10 + 1 table, no particular reads. I get my ass kicked regularly with these hands, even when I am facing no draws, but can't help but feel two things: First, I probably have the best hand so I should try to get some money. Second, if there is a draw, or anyone has a big pair, my hand is vulnerable enough that I want to bet big, while my hand might still have some power, because it could lose it real soon.

Does anybody have any feedback about this hand? Or this type of hand(flopped two bottom pair)?

***** Hand History for Game 2220514394 *****
NL Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:13170881 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Friday, June 17, 11:49:58 EDT 2005
Table Table 35131 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: SeToverSeTAA ( $703 )
Seat 2: stiphout ( $770 )
Seat 4: jhdubya ( $885 )
Seat 5: ParaStar ( $955 )
Seat 6: jfsma57 ( $730 )
Seat 8: InvestWEs ( $557 )
Seat 10: DannyBoy731 ( $700 )
Seat 3: letz_play ( $1030 )
Seat 9: Hero ( $1670 )
Trny:13170881 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 8h Ts ]
DannyBoy731 folds.
SeToverSeTAA folds.
stiphout folds.
letz_play calls [30].
jhdubya folds.
ParaStar folds.
jfsma57 folds.
InvestWEs calls [15].
Hero checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 8d, Td ]
InvestWEs bets [30].
Hero is all-In [1640]
letz_play is all-In [1000]
InvestWEs folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ad ]
Hero shows [ 8h, Ts ] two pairs, tens and eights.
letz_play shows [ Js, 9s ] a straight, eight to queen.
Hero wins 640 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, tens and eights.
letz_play wins 2120 chips from the main pot with a straight, eight to queen.

[kyro]

Tough hand to play. I play it a little slower, but I'm probably losing my stack regardless....ESPECIALLY at the $11

[mlagoo]

Ok, I mean...

I feel like I'm missing something because you have 4900 posts and should know this.

But... betting big to push out draws is one thing. Betting 1600 chips into a 100 chip pot is something completely different, isn't it?

I'm not saying you don't go broke on this hand... you both flopped monsters. I'm just saying... what the hell is with that flop bet?

[RobGW]

Bottom 2 pair on a flop like this is not a monster. Thinking of this as a monster is probably why you both are going broke on these types of hands. And betting 1600 chips into a 100 pot is horrible.

[microbet]

Slider man, slider man ....

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
letz_play calls [30].
InvestWEs calls [15].
Hero checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 8d, Td ]
InvestWEs bets [30].
Hero is all-In [1640]

[/ QUOTE ]

There are no words.

[Sabrazack]

I think you slightly overpet this pot on the flop, definately play it slower next time. But at the elevens, im goin broke with two pair unless there is ALOT of action from others.

[adanthar]

Wait, I just found some words. "Captain, POSTFLOP PLAY ALERT, RUN FOR THE HILLS"

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
First, I probably have the best hand so I should try to get some money. Second, if there is a draw, or anyone has a big pair, my hand is vulnerable enough that I want to bet big, while my hand might still have some power, because it could lose it real soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can accomplish both these goals with a MUCH smaller raise.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom 2 pair on a flop like this is not a monster. Thinking of this as a monster is probably why you both are going broke on these types of hands. And betting 1600 chips into a 100 pot is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really is a pretty huge flop in an unraised flop where an MP and SB limped in. If you are not going broke on flops like this (well, ultimately, a lot of cards could come on the turn that would scare me after my reasonably sized flop bet), then you have, whats it called, "monsters-under-the-bed" disease. If you are seeing QT or J9 in your opponents hands, you are playing far too tight IMO.

[RobGW]

I did not say it wasn't a good hand, its just not a monster. And I am not suggesting that a raise is not in order either. But $1,600 into a $100 pot? What I am saying is that if you learn to play better post flop it is possible to get away from this without losing all your chips.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
I did not say it wasn't a good hand, its just not a monster. And I am not suggesting that a raise is not in order either. But $1,600 into a $100 pot? What I am saying is that if you learn to play better post flop it is possible to get away from this without losing all your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't I say in my first post that the 1600 flop bet is ridiculous?

however, here's an example of what the action might go like normally: you pot it, he raises to 300-400. you now have two moves: you can reraise to try and push out any draws, or my line (right or wrong) would probably be to smoothcall and push a brick turn. if a diamond or a gap-filler comes on the turn, i'm done with the hand. but if a 2s comes, I'm putting all my chips in anyway, and he's instacalling with the nut straight.

when am i supposed to get away from the hand, assuming the turn is a non-threatening card?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I mean...

I feel like I'm missing something because you have 4900 posts and should know this.

But... betting big to push out draws is one thing. Betting 1600 chips into a 100 chip pot is something completely different, isn't it?

I'm not saying you don't go broke on this hand... you both flopped monsters. I'm just saying... what the hell is with that flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, a disclaimer. The 4900 posts are from talking about movies in OOT.

I bet huge because I didn't want calls(bok bok bok) and didn't really expect them expect them, but if I got them, I figured I might double up. If someone was going to outdraw me, I didn't want them to take a chance on doing it without imposing a terrific penalty on them.

This situation frustrates me, and that's why I'm asking for feedback. It's not all that rare for me to see this one pop up.

I figured if I bet a more reasonable amount, the flop looked dangerous enough that there was quite a good chance I would both get outdrawn and pay off the villains, which puts me in the same position as I would be before the turn -- committing my stack -- but without the chance of winning the pot ouright.

I do think you're right about this not being the ideal time to do this, as the reward was fairly low. But I see people call with total garbage so much in the 10's that doubling up from someone's random calling impulse or heads-up chasing of a draw isn't too rare.

These kind of hands really feel like push or fold with me. I hate just betting them. That just seems to be inviting people to beat me while I'm holding very vulnerable cards.

Am I so chieken that I'm losing value? When with bottom two pair, maybe I'm so gunshy I'm overcompensating.

[TexInAtl]

What happened to the concept of gaining information ATF? You have a really good hand, not a GREAT hand, but a winning hand none the less. Why would you only want to win the 90 in the pot with a potentially winning hand? Why not make your opponents pay for their draws? Take this line for example:

Hero: 10s8h in the BB (sees the flop for free)
Villian: XX in MP limps

Flop comes: Qh, 8d, Td Hero checks, MP bets 90, SB folds, Hero raises to 270-300ish, and MP SMOOTH CALLS (WARNING BELLS, WARNING BELLS)

Turn comes: 7c Hero bets 300-350ish, MP SMOOTH CALLS again. At this point, Hero should be done with the hand. Hero gained all the information he/she needs without doubling up Villian. Villian's actions from this point on are irrelevant.

Come on guys, there is such a thing as post flop play. I've read one thread this morning talking about the +EV of pushing 4s5s PF, and people flipping out because Party has added a 75/150 level which means more play before people can get to the all-in or fold mode.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes: Qh, 8d, Td Hero checks, MP bets 90, SB folds, Hero raises to 270-300ish, and MP SMOOTH CALLS (WARNING BELLS, WARNING BELLS)

Turn comes: 7c Hero bets 300-350ish, MP SMOOTH CALLS again. At this point, Hero should be done with the hand. Hero gained all the information he/she needs without doubling up Villian. Villian's actions from this point on are irrelevant.


[/ QUOTE ]

i hate checking the flop. you're going to give a free card on a board like this? enhhh...

i don't think the call of your turn bet would set off warning bells for me. there is like 800 in the pot (fuzzy math) and you bet 300 into it. you're giving him odds to draw, especially if he has diamonds and any sort of a gutshot or pair.

in conclusion, i disagree.

[TexInAtl]

So, in short, you'd rather lose the majority of your chips and double your opponent when you're beat than to try to gather information to find out whether your beat or not?

If so, that doesn't seem to be very +EV. If not, then suggest a different line. I'd be interested in seeing an alternative way to play this hand while not completely committing 1000 chips to bottom 2. If you're already gonna commit 1000 chips to bottom 2, what's wrong with the 1600 flop bet?

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
So, in short, you'd rather lose the majority of your chips and double your opponent when you're beat than to try to gather information to find out whether your beat or not?

If so, that doesn't seem to be very +EV. If not, then suggest a different line. I'd be interested in seeing an alternative way to play this hand while not completely committing 1000 chips to bottom 2. If you're already gonna commit 1000 chips to bottom 2, what's wrong with the 1600 flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

whats wrong with the 1600 flop bet is that youve got a strong hand and you want value out of it, not the 100 chips that got in the pot preflop.

i already suggested my line. i would lose my chips here if a blank came on the turn. that's the way i play and i don't think its wrong (and no one has convinced me otherwise in this thread). some hands you just are bound to lose your chips.

what sort of insightful information are you gaining by betting <1/2 pot on a draw heavy board on the turn? either he has a monster and is trapping or he is still drawing and you are giving him odds to do so.

[Blarg]

Doesn't your giving a free card on the flop basically give the opponent the very opportunity to beat you that you're worried about in the first place? If any of numerous draw cards comes up, as well as any ace or king, aren't you better off tossing the cards outright instead of committing another few hundred to the pot, and possibly another few hundred more?

I see 6,7,9,J,K, and Ace for straight cards, plus any diamond. There are so many ways to hit a draw on this board it's staggering. It's like there's hardly anything that can hit the board that WON'T screw you.

Letting draws in for free seems to me to be throwing away your hand without even giving yourself a fair chance to win.

It's almost impossible for an OP to discuss a hand without appearing like he's arguing or being stubborn unfortunately, and I did pick this hand specifically because I know it's such an exaggerated play and therefore likely to provoke comment and some give and take and a few big belly laughs at the expense of your hero, our humble narrator.

I'm well aware that this was a massive move to make at the pot.

I'm just wondering if giving up 600, or maybe my whole stack anyway, to find out street by street where I am, which in two more cards is very likely to be beaten if I'm not already, is really all that much better than making a quick snatch at 100 chips and being done with it. I hate dribbling them away chip by chip on a board that shows me so little promise and shows so much promise to the villains.

It seems this hand has already provoked some strong answers, including some about a word long that the play was moronic. I'm not sure how much that's being said merely reflexively without really knowing or caring about the problem at this point, though, particularly taking into account that we're at the 11's and not the 109's, and especially since one-word answers are often said just for fun and for ego purposes, so it's hard to rely on them for much.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems this hand has already provoked some strong answers, including some that the play was moronic. I'm not sure how much that's being said merely reflexively without really knowing or caring about the problem at this point, though, particularly taking into account that we're at the 11's and not the 109's, and especially since one-word answers are often said just for fun and for ego purposes, so it's hard to rely on them for much.

[/ QUOTE ]

The play *was* moronic. I don't care if it's the 109's, the 11's or the 1.10's, it's moronic. It's not quite as horrific as it seems at the 11's because you'll get the occasional curiosity lookup call from one pair and AA, but jeez, I hope I don't have to explain why pushing for 18x the pot on a coordinated board is a bad thing to a guy with 5K posts. I mean, even the people in small stakes NL would be horrified over this.

Oh no, an A or K will give someone a straight? Yeah, and if you have aces, get callers and the board comes T52, they could have a set, but you don't play like that, do you?

[TexInAtl]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't your giving a free card on the flop basically give the opponent the very opportunity to beat you that you're worried about in the first place? If any of numerous draw cards comes up, as well as any ace or king, aren't you better off tossing the cards outright instead of committing another few hundred to the pot, and possibly another few hundred more?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not giving away a free card though. You're setting up to take the odds for the draw away and to gather information. I didn't say to check the flop to give a free card. I said check the flop and RAISE your opponents bet in order to take away the odds of calling on a draw correct. If they take the free card, the 7 comes on the turn, and it's a greater possiblity that they've made their draw. What do you have invested at this point if they take the free card? T30 right!!! Not saying that it's correct, but then you could check fold the turn and you're out T30 instead of losing T1000.

[ QUOTE ]
I see 6,7,9,J,K, and Ace for straight cards, plus any diamond. There are so many ways to hit a draw on this board it's staggering. It's like there's hardly anything that can hit the board that WON'T screw you.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, having said this, do you really think that your bottom 2 will be good if this hand goes to showdown?

[ QUOTE ]
Letting draws in for free seems to me to be throwing away your hand without even giving yourself a fair chance to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, that's the purpose of the flop C/R.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just wondering if giving up 600, or maybe my whole stack anyway, to find out street by street where I am, which in two more cards is very likely to be beaten if I'm not already, is really all that much better than making a quick snatch at 100 chips and being done with it. I hate dribbling them away chip by chip on a board that shows me so little promise and shows so much promise to the villains.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this stems from a fear of post-flop play, and the inability to get away from a strong, but not the nuts, hand.

On a side note, I had a hand very similar to this the other day. Very first hand of a $10&1 Sng:

I was in the BB with KdJd. UTG limps, MP raises to 80 (10/15 blinds), I call, UTG calls.

Flop comes: Ks Qc Jc(Pot 250) I check, UTG checks, MP bets 200. I raised to 600 thereby taking the odds for draws away. UTG pushes for 720, MP calls, I call.

Turn was a blank. River was the 7c

I turn over top and middle pair, MP turns over AJ for middle pair top kicker.

UTG turns over 6c4c for a rivered flush.

Point: Some people absolutely don't care about the odds and will chase their draws no matter what the cost.

[Blarg]

At the 11's I'll get more than occasional calls, and from far, far worse hands than AA. That's one of the main reasons for pushing so hard in the first place -- the risk is huge of course, but the pay-off has a greater frequency than I think you're taking into account.

I guess in the 11's I've seen everything when it comes to calling -- every kind of crap -- so I'm kind of immune to expecting people not to call with crazy holdings, or bet with them. I know my play wasn't a great one, but inherent in it was that at the 11's I'm getting a fair number of people who will call with one pair and double my stack. The very same people I see calling my AA flop bet when it's the first hand I've played all game, I raised from early position preflop 3x the BB, and the flop comes A8x because they have an 8 are also calling this flop too because they had QJ. The people who so often double me up by level 2 or 3 are very often doing it with hands you would be amazed to see coldcalling and overcalling raises preflop, like 44, or something that develops into the ignorant end of a straight draw.

I know terrible play by others doesn't make my play better in itself, but I'm not saying I would make this play against a crowd that was typically comprised of better players. I was just thinking that in the context of constantly surprising terrible play, my chances of either getting a quick few chips or, alternatively, doubling up, seemed fairly high. Whereas almost any card that hit the board after my flop looks nasty and like it will call just as many chips out of my hand.

Perhaps my read of the 11's is dead wrong or simply irrelevant because the coordinated board makes the play just terrible regardless of any situation or any read. I was wondering if the chance to either get a few quick chips or quickly doubling up was better than trying to extract value with two bottom pair street by street, which I'm instinctively feeling seems like a fairly low percentage endeavor better suited to ring games where you can afford to extract value and be wrong a few times, as opposed to SNG's, where bleeding off chips slowly in hands like these is hard to recover from.

I know it's a risky as hell thing. These guys are doubling me up calling with crap so much that I guess maybe I'm learning bad habits of mind. I wouldn't play like this in a higher level, but maybe I shouldn't adjust my play too much based on this level. Maybe winning 100, with the occasional chance of doubling up, isn't that much better than frequently losing 600 after all.

[TexInAtl]

I think someone needs to do the math on this, and I don't have the tools to do it.

What is the percentages that someone will call with a worse hand and lose?

What is the percentage that someone will call with a draw and lose?

What is the percentage that someone will call with a draw and win?

What is the percentage that no one will call and you win T90?

To me, the whole concept around POST-flop play is to maximize your winnings when you have the best of it and minimize your loses when you don't. This type of play to me seems to minimize your winnings when you have the best hand (T90 against good players) and maximize your loses when you don't. Seems -EV to me.

P.S. Forgot to add one:
What percentage of the time will someone call you with a better hand and win?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
You're not giving away a free card though. You're setting up to take the odds for the draw away and to gather information. I didn't say to check the flop to give a free card. I said check the flop and RAISE your opponents bet in order to take away the odds of calling on a draw correct. If they take the free card, the 7 comes on the turn, and it's a greater possiblity that they've made their draw. What do you have invested at this point if they take the free card? T30 right!!! Not saying that it's correct, but then you could check fold the turn and you're out T30 instead of losing T1000.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're still giving away a free card, but I guess this is because your valuing the hand differently than I am. And that's good to know, because I have been uncomfortable with my valuation of this hand.

I think the incredible draw-worthiness of the flop probably confused matters.

My basic problem was that yes, I don't fee comfortable post-flop playing bottom two pair. The draw potential in this particular case just made it even worse, which makes it such an exaggerated case and provoked such an exaggerated play on my part. I felt even less comfortable playing bottom two pair post flop when I could be looking at either a straight or a flush or both on either the turn or the flop or both, plus the potential of someone simply getting two higher pair or trips. Really, this hand can turn into a monster for the villains so easily, and how much money do I really want to have invested at that point? Because it seems like a born tourney-ender of a hand.

That's why I was saying this seems so much like a situation I either want none of or to make a quick killing at, rather than going through the painful process of getting outdrawn on. I know it's not inevitable and I need to sack up a little, but jeez, the chances are not slight.

There seem to be a lot of good spirited answers here, but none of them seem to make me very happy about holding bottom two pair, especially trying to play in in the face of the blizzard of cards to come that could kill me.

I instinctually bet flops where I have a hand at least big enough to ruin drawing odds, and am faced with some intelligent but somewhat contradictory replies. One reply says to do that, one says not to, and one reminds me that standard play is standard play here too. Which still leaves me with the dilemma of cards that are tough to play and likely to lose me anywhere from a substantial portion to the whole of my stack.

Adanthar seems to suggest with his comment about AA versus a crummy T52 board that the risk of playing bottom two pair isn't so large that the reward isn't worth it, whereas I see six cards for a straight draw with half of them repeated again for a flush draw and we haven't even started talking about pairs yet, all waiting to see who uppercuts me first.

I guess the cumulative advice I'm distilling is to play them square and straight and be prepared to lose with them a hell of a lot, because that's what two pair will do in this situation. amd just accept that. It just seems like the chances of not getting hurt with this hand are small enough that I wonder if there's much point in committing chips in the first place -- if the overall win rate for bottom two pair, with or without facing a draw (or two) on board, is substantial enough to jeopardize a tournament for, whether your playing with either my skill level or the skill level of someone far better.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
This type of play to me seems to minimize your winnings when you have the best hand (T90 against good players) and maximize your loses when you don't. Seems -EV to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't believe we're still talking about whether or not this was a good bet. of course it wasn't. there's no way there should even be a debate about it. at first i sort of assumed, because the OP had 5000 posts, it was some upper-level stuff that i didn't understand. but its just a bad bet. lets talk about something different.

[TexInAtl]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the cumulative advice I'm distilling is to play them square and straight and be prepared to lose with them a hell of a lot, because that's what two pair will do in this situation. amd just accept that. It just seems like the chances of not getting hurt with this hand are small enough that I wonder if there's much point in committing chips in the first place -- if the overall win rate for bottom two pair, with or without facing a draw (or two) on board, is substantial enough to jeopardize a tournament for, whether your playing with either my skill level or the skill level of someone far better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your reasoning of playing hands like this square and straight is correct, but NOT to expect to lose with them a hell of a lot. Two pair is a very strong hand, and the majority of the time it will win. My point was to not be so afraid of post-flop play and to allow yourself the opportunity to analyze the situation to best determine, based on your own knowledge and reads on your opponents, when your hand is good and when its beat. Then, to "sack up" enough as you say, when you're beat to let go of the hand. How would you have played it if you knew YOU were the one with the 8 out draw?

[Blarg]

Nah, I've been up all night and been getting over-aggressive in response to feeling over-timid because of a limp couple of weeks.

The real question was not how bad my play was, but whether the hand had enough going for it to make it look all that great if played differently. To which there seems to be some disagreement, but not enough to make two bottom pair seem much more of a glorious hand than I thought it was. As far as I can tell, playing this hand well doesn't seem to make it look too hot, either.

And please, no more assumptions that I'm not an idiot in SNG's just because I've made a lot of posts about movies in OOT. I only started playing SNG's in April and am thus far an admitted fool. That's why I'm posting here in the first place, to fix that. Everyone's got an opinion, but for me SNG's are mostly about asking, not telling. Getting some laughs from me is fine, but I'm no info source.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess the cumulative advice I'm distilling is to play them square and straight and be prepared to lose with them a hell of a lot, because that's what two pair will do in this situation. amd just accept that. It just seems like the chances of not getting hurt with this hand are small enough that I wonder if there's much point in committing chips in the first place -- if the overall win rate for bottom two pair, with or without facing a draw (or two) on board, is substantial enough to jeopardize a tournament for, whether your playing with either my skill level or the skill level of someone far better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your reasoning of playing hands like this square and straight is correct, but NOT to expect to lose with them a hell of a lot. Two pair is a very strong hand, and the majority of the time it will win. My point was to not be so afraid of post-flop play and to allow yourself the opportunity to analyze the situation to best determine, based on your own knowledge and reads on your opponents, when your hand is good and when its beat. Then, to "sack up" enough as you say, when you're beat to let go of the hand. How would you have played it if you knew YOU were the one with the 8 out draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally don't play draws very much in SNG's, and rarely heads-up. If I play a draw heads-up, it is because I have overcards or a pair as part of it, or a backdoor straight to go along with my flush draw, or such. Additionally, I tend not to play the bottom ends of straights, or play for a straight when flush cards are on board, or play inside straight draws, and I'm a little less likely to play a straight when one of the cards I need is likely in someone's hand(like I have QJ and need a King that someone probably has). And, there are other situations in which I'm really picky about playing draws, like the odds aren't right.

If I were the one with the draw in that hand, where the flop came up QT8, I would throw the cards away instantly unless I had AQ probably, or straight flush cards. I'm thinking of a likely straight draw as KJo and forgetting about the flush part for a sec. That would give me an open-ender to either the nut or second nut straight, with bonus points if I put my opponent who just made a huge raise on a pair of queens that my King might trump if I pair that even while missing my straight. But he could already have two pair or a straight himself too, so I would discount my chances of a pair of kings doing anything for me. Someone forcing me to call my whole stack on a draw isn't give me the odds I want. I'm out of there with a draw that doesn't have strong potential for both a straight and a flush, if draws are my only option. If I had AQ or something, I'd have pushed my money in the middle as fast as I could.

[RobGW]

[ QUOTE ]
here's an example of what the action might go like normally: you pot it, he raises to 300-400. you now have two moves: you can reraise to try and push out any draws, or my line (right or wrong) would probably be to smoothcall and push a brick turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is one more move you are forgetting about. Fold. With a bet, a raise, and a reraise I would think that my 2 pair MAY NOT be good. You seem to be insisting that it is still good. If you want to risk most of your stack here then go ahead. Just ignore all the info on the flop and just assume that villian is an idiot.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
here's an example of what the action might go like normally: you pot it, he raises to 300-400. you now have two moves: you can reraise to try and push out any draws, or my line (right or wrong) would probably be to smoothcall and push a brick turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is one more move you are forgetting about. Fold. With a bet, a raise, and a reraise I would think that my 2 pair MAY NOT be good. You seem to be insisting that it is still good. If you want to risk most of your stack here then go ahead. Just ignore all the info on the flop and just assume that villian is an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

what reraise are you even talking about. i bet and was raised. you are playing way too scared if you are folding two pair in a limped pot to a raise in the $11s. like, WAY too scared.

[TexInAtl]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were the one with the draw in that hand, where the flop came up QT8, I would throw the cards away instantly unless I had AQ probably, or straight flush cards. I'm thinking of a likely straight draw as KJo and forgetting about the flush part for a sec. That would give me an open-ender to either the nut or second nut straight, with bonus points if I put my opponent who just made a huge raise on a pair of queens that my King might trump if I pair that even while missing my straight. But he could already have two pair or a straight himself too, so I would discount my chances of a pair of kings doing anything for me. Someone forcing me to call my whole stack on a draw isn't give me the odds I want. I'm out of there with a draw that doesn't have strong potential for both a straight and a flush, if draws are my only option. If I had AQ or something, I'd have pushed my money in the middle as fast as I could.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhhh, now I think we're getting to the root of the problem. The ability, or inablity as the case may be, to correctly value your hand. You're saying that you would make the same play with AQ on a draw heavy board, and therefore you are assigning the same value to TPTK as to bottom 2, when in essence, bottom 2 is the much more valuable hand. Say the board was Q-4-8 rainbow. Which hand would you rather have: AQ or 48? Also, which hand do you think has a higher value: 4-8 on a Q-4-8 board, or 8-10 on a Q-10-8 board? Also, why would you play a hand that had both straight and flush possiblities so strongly? Because you have greater potiential of having the best hand at showdown.

I think overvaluing hands could potentially be a huge leak in anyones game, and I know that I struggle with the same issue at times. You might try to play hands like the one in the original post as trying to outdraw a draw rather than forcing out other draws. Maybe that will allow you to better value your hand.

[pineapple888]

OK, after reading all the posts so far, here's my take:

- Bottom two pair is a strong but vulnerable hand that is among the most difficult to play post-flop.

- A talented post-flop player sees this as an opportunity.

- But at the 11s, the donk factor can overwhelm the chance to play this flop skillfully, because it is so difficult to gather information from donks. Plus, you might make a mistake yourself.

- Meanwhile, if you push, one of the donks will call with a worse hand a large percentage of the time.

Ergo... push.

Well, I see your point. This push may very well be +EV *at the 11s*, despite the vitriol you are getting from some others.

But... dude... don't you want to learn how to play post-flop at some point?

[Blarg]

Thanks, I appreciate your feedback. You're forcing me to think about this more.

Thinking of how vulnerable bottom two is to a flop with lots of draw possibilities does seem out of sync with my feeling much more confident about my chances against the same board with TPTK. I know both are vulnerable yet both are probably the best hand, and bottom two pair is actually the better hand, but I've been playing it as if it were worse than TPTK. Your suggestion to think of bottom two as somewhat like a draw of my own forces me to think of TPTK all the more so that way, since it's even more vulnerable. It can improve to more, and more easily than two pair can turn into a full house, but it also needs to improve to more to stand up to what another draw may turn into -- like two pair of its own, or trips, even if the draw misses.

I guess I really am gunshy. This was actually an unusual move for me, so that's why I posted it in the first place, but I was seriously considering this as a hand more fraught with danger than it really is. If I can be aggressive with TPTK against an opponent who hasn't exhibited particular strength, then I shouldn't be so shy of bottom two pair, whicih is actually a better hand, to see if I can extract more money with it street by street. It's so vulnerable I haven't been giving it as much credit as I should for being what it probably is -- the best hand. Just one that isn't all that easy to play.

I'll be thinking about this more, and thank you for spending the time and effort helping me work on a hole in my play. I'm glad I made this post today.